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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Lodgers entitlements

78 replies

Exitstrategist · 30/03/2024 11:26

Hi- expecting to be flamed here but interested in what people think. We have a small flat (2 bedroom) in Dublin. Our interest rates have gone up three times so we needed to get a lodger. Husband uses the flat two nights a week. Advertised on well-known spare room type site. Woman interested. Works nearby. She is from the city so led us to believe she was just here during the week. Agreed a price including bills for Monday- Friday. Husband agreed with her that she could stay the occasional weekend if we aren’t using it. The problem is we haven’t been using it and husband has been rarely here too. We have come for the weekend- asked her to leave as kids need to use her room. There is stuff EVERYWHERE- she has clearly fully moved in and here all the time. Created a fuss about how inconvenient it was to move out. The place is filthy. Our bills are now reflecting that she is here full time. Husband does not want this. We have a lot of people using the flat in coming weekends and need her out of here but she is making us feel like the unreasonable ones. Who is being unreasonable? I have said to husband he needs to sit her down and go through house rules. Her bloody mate is storing stuff here too!!!

OP posts:
WarshipRocinante · 30/03/2024 11:52

Quizine · 30/03/2024 11:51

Legally and taxation wise, is she actually a lodger at all given that it appears to be a second home/property. I understood that a "lodger" lives in a room IN YOUR HOME.

That is a problem you need to clarify, and the "lodger" problem comes from the fact that the owner/tenant does not live there full time, so naturally she thinks she has the run of the place.

She could claim to be a tenant, and she doesn't need a formal contract to claim this either.

Gird your loins, this could be a bumpy ride!

She doesn’t have sole use of the property. She is a lodger. Doesn’t matter if OP or her husband only stay there a couple nights a week. They are using it regularly and have a lodger staying.
You can have a lodger in your home and work away from home. They don’t turn into a tenant. They don’t have sole use.

Quizine · 30/03/2024 11:59

WarshipRocinante · 30/03/2024 11:52

She doesn’t have sole use of the property. She is a lodger. Doesn’t matter if OP or her husband only stay there a couple nights a week. They are using it regularly and have a lodger staying.
You can have a lodger in your home and work away from home. They don’t turn into a tenant. They don’t have sole use.

Show quote history

This is in Ireland so maybe the rules are different in the UK. In ROI a lodger must share the owner's home. It does not appear to be their home as they only use it occasionally, which is different to being away on extended holidays and work etc.

There is a tax exemption but only if the OWNER shares his/her HOME with a lodger. That is not the case here I'd say so it's a grey area as to whether the woman is a licensee or a tenant.

WarshipRocinante · 30/03/2024 12:02

Quizine · 30/03/2024 11:59

This is in Ireland so maybe the rules are different in the UK. In ROI a lodger must share the owner's home. It does not appear to be their home as they only use it occasionally, which is different to being away on extended holidays and work etc.

There is a tax exemption but only if the OWNER shares his/her HOME with a lodger. That is not the case here I'd say so it's a grey area as to whether the woman is a licensee or a tenant.

Show quote history

No. Tenants have sole use of the property, and landlords cannot come and go. If you still use the home, whether or not you use it full time, then you cannot have a tennant.

She is a lodger. She doesn’t have sole use of the property. It is still their home, part time or full time, they use it.

Elephantswillnever · 30/03/2024 12:02

I've been a Mon- Fri lodger. Deal was they'd give me a heads up if I needed to make my room available for guests at the weekend. The wardrobe had a lock and I could leave stuff in there. I'd strip the bed and stick sheets in washer on Friday morning, tidy up ensuite and remove my toiletries etc. Sheets'd be left clean but not ironed for me to put back on on Monday night. It worked for nearly two years but we were respectful of each other etc.

I never stayed for the weekend but I'd leave my stuff out if no-one was expected.

Original poster
Exitstrategist · 30/03/2024 12:08

I think husband has massively dropped the ball but can see how it has happened as he literally comes back from work and falls into bed. However on this Easter weekend we are cleaning. So some rules definitely need to be established

OP posts:
Gall10 · 30/03/2024 12:10

Proudbitch · 30/03/2024 11:39

“Unlike a tenant or a subtenant, a lodger does not have exclusive rights to the room they pay for, (save more something being expressly agreed). They cannot lock their lodging space before going out as it remains accessible to the landlord in the lodger's absence without prior notice or permission.”

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Is this English law, Scottish law, uk law or law in Republic of Ireland? Are you a solicitor specializing in property law in Republic of Ireland?

Abitofalark · 30/03/2024 12:12

People here will be giving opinions or advice based on the law in England, mainly.

Since the flat is in Ireland, different laws, customs and practice in relation to tenancies and lodgers may apply.

That's why you need legal advice or advice from landlord specialists in law and regulations in Ireland.

Quizine · 30/03/2024 12:12

WarshipRocinante · 30/03/2024 12:02

No. Tenants have sole use of the property, and landlords cannot come and go. If you still use the home, whether or not you use it full time, then you cannot have a tennant.

She is a lodger. She doesn’t have sole use of the property. It is still their home, part time or full time, they use it.

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I'm duly chastened but I'm still not convinced either!

I wonder why all landlords don't spend a night now and then in their flat/home in order to avoid the vagaries of a legal tenancy. That would make it so much easier to evict and change the locks surely!

Hankunamatata · 30/03/2024 12:14

What does lodger contract say?

I don't thinks unreasonable for her to have personal space in the flast for possessions. Like a wardrobe she can lock if you intend to use the bedroom when she isn't there.

Watchkeys · 30/03/2024 12:14

She isn't getting what she wants. You are not getting what you want. It doesn't matter who is 'unreasonable'; you are not a compatible match.

Terminate the agreement and find someone else.

WarshipRocinante · 30/03/2024 12:16

Quizine · 30/03/2024 12:12

I'm duly chastened but I'm still not convinced either!

I wonder why all landlords don't spend a night now and then in their flat/home in order to avoid the vagaries of a legal tenancy. That would make it so much easier to evict and change the locks surely!

Show quote history

Because then they can’t charge as much! They wouldn’t be able to charge going rate rent levels to cover their mortgage and insurance etc. So… that would be stupid.

Bluefell · 30/03/2024 12:21

So she’s signed up for a Mon-Fri let but has been taking the piss and staying every weekend as well, and now is complaining when asked to stick to the terms of her contract. She clearly doesn’t have another place to go at the weekends and intends to live at your flat full time. The fact she’s got stuff everywhere (including her friend’s stuff!) shows that she thinks she lives there.

I would say the relationship has been soured and you can’t continue having her as a lodger. Get rid and find a replacement. It’ll be very difficult to get her to follow the rules now that she’s been allowed to get away with it.

BobbyBiscuits · 30/03/2024 12:22

I'm a bit confused. She only pays to live their Monday to Friday. So she must remove all her stuff from her room/communal areas and take it away each weekend?
If she was from the city, why would you think she had somewhere else to live at weekends, why would she need yours if she already lives there?
Thinking from the tenants point of view it all sounds pretty horrible. Is it her home or not?
If there are 2 bedrooms, the idea that one is 'your husbands' even though he's rarely there, and the other room is hers. She has been using the second bedroom also? In that case it's out of order. I honestly think this sounds like you've tied yourselves in knots here.

Original poster
Exitstrategist · 30/03/2024 12:27

To clarify, her parents live at the other side of the city- must be about a 45 minute commute at least. The flat is next to her work.

OP posts:
Spirallingdownwards · 30/03/2024 12:27

Most lodgers I know who are on Mon-Fri still have exclusive use of the room they rent and are able to leave belongings behind over the weekend.

Original poster
Exitstrategist · 30/03/2024 12:28

I don’t expect her to remove all her stuff!! I just would expect there to be a more reasonable amount of it!!!

OP posts:
Quizine · 30/03/2024 12:29

WarshipRocinante · 30/03/2024 12:16

Because then they can’t charge as much! They wouldn’t be able to charge going rate rent levels to cover their mortgage and insurance etc. So… that would be stupid.

Show quote history

OK, cool the jets!

If you read this, you'll see that a "lodger" is defined inter alia as living in the landlord's "Main Residential Home" That is definitely NOT the case here.

Is my occupant a lodger or a tenant? - Lodger Guide

That is England and Wales, but similar definitions apply in ROI. Just saying....

Is my occupant a lodger or a tenant? - Lodger Guide

Article covering the differences between a tenant and a lodger - and guidance on how to determine what the status is of your occupier.

https://www.lodgerguide.co.uk/is-my-occupant-a-lodger-or-a-tenant/

Bluefell · 30/03/2024 12:29

Thinking from the tenants point of view it all sounds pretty horrible. Is it her home or not?
It’s not her home. That’s the whole point. She’s not a tenant. She’s a Mon-Fri lodger who has a home elsewhere. It’s fairly common for people to enter into this sort of arrangement when their home is too far away from work to be able to commute every day.

xyz111 · 30/03/2024 12:33

"Led us to believe" was your first mistake. Why would you do anything like this without doing it properly??

TimeGrabsYouByTheWrist · 30/03/2024 12:35

Rainbowshit · 30/03/2024 11:32

Wow. What a mess. You are absolutely being unreasonable. This isn't a lodger situation if other people are going to use her room at weekends

I suggest you get some proper legal advice.

That's incorrect.

There are plenty of people who lodge with someone Monday to Friday then leave the room vacant. It's much cheaper.

If the lodger agreement clearly stated the room needed to be left clear at weekends then that's what needed to happen.

If the lodger has been staying full time then they should have been paying for full use of the room.

Saying that, the OP should have also been living there too to make it a lodger agreement.

CandidHedgehog · 30/03/2024 13:21

Rainbowshit · 30/03/2024 11:32

Wow. What a mess. You are absolutely being unreasonable. This isn't a lodger situation if other people are going to use her room at weekends

I suggest you get some proper legal advice.

Of course it is. I’ve had this sort of agreement. It’s a standard M-F lodging agreement. I got a drawer and a small amount of wardrobe space plus somewhere to store my bedding and permission to keep a small amount of food in the fridge freezer.

The (correct) assumption was that I had an actual home elsewhere.

CandidHedgehog · 30/03/2024 13:25

Spirallingdownwards · 30/03/2024 12:27

Most lodgers I know who are on Mon-Fri still have exclusive use of the room they rent and are able to leave belongings behind over the weekend.

I didn’t and that was reflected in the rent.

CandidHedgehog · 30/03/2024 13:29

Bluefell · 30/03/2024 12:29

Thinking from the tenants point of view it all sounds pretty horrible. Is it her home or not?
It’s not her home. That’s the whole point. She’s not a tenant. She’s a Mon-Fri lodger who has a home elsewhere. It’s fairly common for people to enter into this sort of arrangement when their home is too far away from work to be able to commute every day.

This. I’ve had this arrangement. It was cheaper than 4 nights a week in a hotel, meant I didn’t have to transport toiletries etc. and gave me access to a kitchen. It didn’t feel like and wasn’t intended to be my home.

I had a nice flat that was my actual home 3 hours away from where I worked.

milveycrohn · 30/03/2024 13:31

I think there is confusion here between tenant and lodger.
A lodger is someone who rents a room in your house, whereby you as the LL live in the property.
If the house is empty all the time, then the lodger would quite easily have assumed this was some kind of multi share etc, though with no other tenants.

AltitudeCheck · 30/03/2024 13:42

I would assume a M-F agreement is similar to renting an AirBnb or cottage for those nights, somewhere to stay for work or leisure but not where you actually live. It's a bonus if the owner allows you to store a few things there in-between the dates you are booked in to stay. She's been a CF and clearly doesn't have a main residence. I would be adding into your agreement that she doesn't use your address as her postal address either.