Lord above some people are just... unbelievable!

[DuIcieDomum]

There's an Apache MK1 final flypast today [yawn] which DP and DS (autistic, this comes under one of his special interests) have been banging on about for days. They made flasks of cocoa and set up deckchairs in one of our fields (we live on a farm) to sit and watch it. Anyway it was delayed by 45 mins so they came in to eat lunch and then went back out...to find two men sitting on the deckchairs eating sandwiches waiting for the flypast . There was a third man with a dog with them, who actually asked DP to put our dog on a lead because his dog is nervous of other dogs!!

Now, this was in our field which is private land. The field is visible from a footpath but the footpath just goes past the gate and doesn't enter the field. They just saw our deckchairs and though it looked like a nice place to go and sit.

DP said sorry but no, they'd have to take the dog out of the field if it wasn't ok with other dogs, and that he and DS wanted their deckchairs back. A bit of harrumphing and the men left but... WTF?!?

Can farmers shoot dogs? From agricultural law solicitors:

https://www.crombiewilkinson.co.uk/site/blog/news/sheep-worrying-and-your-rights

“No. Contrary to popular belief, a farmer does not have a legal right to shoot a dog that is worrying their livestock. What they have is a legal defence. Shooting a dog must be a last resort.

Dogs are classed as property so shooting a dog could trigger criminal damage proceedings and the farmer will have to prove he had a ‘lawful excuse’. The farmer will need to show that his sheep were in immediate need of protection, and that his actions were reasonable having regard to all the circumstances.

Under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, it is an offence to cause unnecessary suffering to dogs. Possible proceeding under this act maybe a particular concern if the dog is not killed cleanly with one shot. Breach of this act can have severe punishment with up to six months’ imprisonment and/or fines of up to £20,000. The use of a gun in these circumstances could potentially lead to a review of the farmer’s gun licence. Although, it is not a ground for revocation any review carries with it a risk that it maybe revoked.”

I would like amendments to right to roam, such as not being able to bring dogs into fields with any kind of livestock in them, so I would at least have the right to tell someone to leave my field.

I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as it doesn't apply to fields which have an existing right of way through them. I live somewhere surrounded by farms and really good designated footpaths and am a very responsible dog owner. I wouldn't want 95% of our walks to be curtailed due to a few idiots- probably those who come down on the train from London at the weekend. We are so lucky that we can access so much of the countryside in the UK - absolutely no need to go into someone's totally private yard/field/garden to do so.

Perhaps this needs a public awareness campaign, to make it seem more shameful to break the countryside code, as was done with drink driving.

@krustykittens

It must be infuriating (and worrying).

However, I think there are, genuinely, loads of us that are walking responsibly. It's just that you'd never see us because we'd never enter a field where you were actively working (even if legally allowed), never leave any trace we've been there and keep our dogs under short, active control - especially around livestock.

Even where RoW exist, I don't take my own dog into a field with cows because - quite frankly - they are large and dangerous animals and I don't know enough about them to predict their behaviour. Dog walks always come with the risk you'll need to double back or take the longer route home to avoid situations like that.

I am wary of taking the dog into a field with horses and tend to only do it if there is a quick route back out again and the horses are situated a distance from the ROW. I would avoid fields with foals but they are rarely placed near ROW, understandably.

I would enter a field with sheep (when the ROW exists) but
a) I worked on training him to ignore nearby sheep from a young age;
b) only if the sheep are not clustered on or near the ROW so we never get too close to spook them;
and
c) only after I have quickly double checked the lead, collar, harness I am using to make sure all is still secure

Even then, the dog is kept under active control by my side and on a short lead, held with two hands.

We responsible ramblers ARE out there. Like I say, I just think we're unseen, unheard and therefore (maybe) uncounted. Which is kinda as it should be. It pisses me off that the idiots are giving all walkers a bad name.

👏👏Well said.

I'd have picked that shit up and thrown it at her

Yep, brilliant. Almost like a really good essay question in a geography exam!

Unfortunately a public awareness campaign will make little difference to the kind of entitled idiots that allow their dogs to run amok.
It is these people that make life a misery for others and these sort of people that give considerate walkers a bad name

Land owners should have more rights to chuck them off their land if they can’t be respectful.

I am a private music tutor. One sunny day I realised a lesson had overrun, but wondered why my next pupil hadn't arrived. I opened my front door for the first pupil to leave and discovered that the Mum of the next pupil had set up a picnic with said pupil plus sibling on my front lawn.
My dog ran over to them and did a wee on the lawn right next to them!

Oh good grief. There are no words...

I found this for Scotland - so horses (as mentioned above) would be protected here. No mention in this article, but it seems that shooting is also deemed to be a last resort here.

https://www.scotland.police.uk/advice-and-information/livestock-attacks-and-worrying/

Also found this article about a case in Scotland where the farmer wasn't aware until the damage had been done. Warning - distressing pictures in the article below.

https://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/20000655.time-test-scotlands-new-dog-attack-law/

Yes, this is the main problem when people ask for more signs to be put up to make the situation clear: the only people who ever bother to read signs (and take notice of public info campaigns) are the ones who don't need to be told in the first place.

Eugh, and they must also have had to walk away with really grim, crinkly buttocks, if they hadn't wiped it.

I've heard of people with IBS and similar conditions demanding the right to use any toilet e.g. a staff-only one in a shop; but never the right to just drop their pants and cack on the ground, wherever they may be.

There are cards that you can get that explain the condition and ask if the bearer can use facilities, but they're not supposed to demand.

I think the problem we have in the UK is bigger than just access to the countryside. Littering can be seen along any main road, in all towns, cities, playgrounds and beaches. In urban areas the council or someone will clear up the mess, in rural areas noone is paid to do this unless it's a public area. Who is going to see what a dog is doing or care what residents put up with which is a kind of anti-social behaviour in any other context. It's what some people get away with. The countryside has been sold as a place for recreation and enjoyment, the fact that people want to carry on with their own businesses and private lives and actually live there is a hindrance to this entitlement. There needs to be an enforceable Country Code.

I am a dog owner and am really careful and take no chances when walking on footpaths adjacent to where there are sheep.

Something about sheep brings out the worst in dogs - Don’t chance it to see if yours is likely to chase or not. ( Same with Deer- as the infamous “Fenton “ video showed in Richmond Park - I grew up there and deer were sometimes killed by off leash dogs chasing them across roads. )

Probably because of how they bunch together and run - And they are such easily stressed animals , too, even if not actually torn by dogs.

Even tiny dogs have chased herds of Red deer .

Farmers are entitled to shoot a dog worrying their stock.

Oh yes, I know it's a scheme that mainly relies on goodwill.

Although, as people with IBS are people, and lots of people are right CFs, there probably are some IBS sufferers who insist/demand that they supposedly have the legal right to use any toilet that they need to.

Even then, the active phrase is 'any toilet' and not 'behind your hedge' or 'in your kiddies' paddling pool'!

@shearwater2 Again, I am talking about Right To Roam in Scotland where open countryside, with a few exceptions, is accessible to all. At the moment, I have no right to tell someone with a dog to get out of my field. I would dearly like that, because predators and prey animals do not mix well. All people would have to do in Scotland is choose another way to walk. As fields are rotated, it wouldn't knock these walks out completely, just when animals are in the field. For instance, my winter field is only used four months of the year.

At the moment, people seem to think that their rights to recreation trump our rights to enjoy our property in peace and quiet and for our animals to be free from distress or harm on our land. For everyone who has come on this thread to say most walkers are respectful and most dog owners are responsible, that is true but what you seem to not understand is that the anti social, disrespectful minority are increasing and their impact in the last two years has been huge. People are actually changing farming habits to keep animals safe and these changes have an impact on animal welfare. All I am suggesting is adjustments to RTM to give land owners a bit more say in how people are behaving on our land.

Public awareness campaigns simply do not work, what we need is for enforceable laws, not guideline's, to be put in place that can be acted on and then having a rural police force that actually has the resources to follow up. But that is a whole other discussion!

Can I also say that I have IBS and have NEVER taken a shit in someone's garden! That is beyond entitled!

Well at least they left - I thought you were going to say they wouldn't go!

I suppose because I wouldn’t, I really don’t understand people who feed animals they don’t own… I wouldnt walk up to a random child and feed them and if I did the parents would understandably tell me to bugger off.

I’m a Walker and actively avoid fields with live stock in .. I’m out for a walk so if it takes longer then so what. Although… sheep are a bit different as Tbh they do a runner anyway…

if I can carry my lunch on a walk I can take home the empty wrapper/ bottle in the bag I brought it in.

i camp… well we have a caravan and love a good campsite. With recycling bins and toilets

I don’t know the answer… and any suggestions I have would cause an outroar 🙈

I don’t understand people at all. They are weird animals. At least other animals respect boundaries.

Sheep get highly stressed and very anxious to the point of having heart attacks if they are stressed. Dogs generally stress them out and I see dogs every year chase sheep and the owners seem unaware of the stress that this causes even if they are not actually biting the sheep. It is really sad to watch.

This really made me laugh, people are so entitled they come on your land then ask you to put dog on lead. I honestly despair of some peoples behaviour.

I hope it doesn't stress them out when I baa hello at them

The best thing to do if you really don’t know is to keep well away from them.