To think being happy with a modest home should the norm?

[DinDinDin]

Obv it depends on where you live and your income etc but pretty much every person I know either lives in a big house or is trying to trade up a modest home to try and upgrade for a bigger place. Some of these people can easily afford it whilst others are overstretching themselves to make it work. AIBU to think we are all (myself included) a bit too sucked into this upgrade mentality anf the fact that we always strive to have more stuff? I am facing the (very fortunate) dilemma of deciding whether to borrow the very maximum I can afford and stretch for a bigger home or choose a more modest option and aim to pay off the mortgage faster and be debt free sooner in life.
Do you notice the same attitude with people around you?

I don’t think it’s fair to say the PP has “no clue”. Everyone has different perceptions of their surroundings. I’ve said before on this topic that if you (not you personally, but “one”) grew up very middle class and privileged in a 4 bed detached then anything else will seem like a downgrade. I grew up in a 2 up 2 down terrace with no wallpaper because my parents bought a doer upper in the 70s when houses were about 50p, but had no money to ever actually do it up.

When I bought my shoebox flat in a not-trendy area of SE London the first thing I did was decorate it because I’d never lived in surroundings curated to my taste (rented for 10 years before this so couldn’t change anything). I work at a tiny desk crammed into my living room, my bedroom is what some might call a box room and the “kitchen” is just some appliances against a wall in the living area. It really doesn’t impact my enjoyment of my work or general well-being to the level you describe. I don’t have room for a full size dining table but I don’t let that stop me having people round. I still
enjoy my life and hobbies and interests.

I won’t lie and say I wouldn’t like more space but honestly my dream is a 2 bed flat with high ceilings - I don’t want a house. It’s also really important to me to stick within my budget and not have monthly repayments exceed what I feel is a comfortable amount. I like the compactness and how it makes you declutter and not accumulate mindless crap. And the cheaper mortgage. Yes, others have more money to make different choices and I don’t have the luxury of unlimited funds but even if I did I’d choose a flat.

YANBU.

The habit of considering the group's standards are our own standards are formed at a very early age. Think "needing" to own a certain pencil case to be like everyone else!This continues into your adult life.

We learn the definitions of happiness and suffering from the society in which we live; the social order dictates how we measure contentment. But one person's happiness is another persons suffering. Beauty is really in the eye of the beholder.

Some of these cultural definitions of happiness (owning an Audi, having an automatic lawnmower) do work to an extent... but the pursuit of happiness by accumulating more and more stuff inevitably leads to an equal measure of headaches.

Live your own life. Focus on kindness and compassion. Think deeply about what truly makes you happy. You're already seeing things more clearly than others.

But you see what I mean is, why wouldn’t people more happily settle in a spacious 2 bed if that’s the case? It’s pretty standard in europe for families of 4 people to live in 2 bed apartments whereas in the UK there is an obsession with a 3 bed semi as a minimum

This is exactly what I meant, I feel the same

In my area, 3 bed anything gets described as a "family home" on the listing whereas a 2 bed gets "Starter home/ideal buy to let investment". We have one child so could easily have had sleeping space for our "family" in our first house, a 2 bed.
However, we would have needed one of the following -

Living room big enough to fit a desk in
Dining room to use as an office
Box room for an office - often bumps it to a "3 bed" anyway

Our last house had none of this, so we moved before we had DS.

I’m early 50s and practically everyone I know at my stage of live is frantically upsizing, extending or improving to try to get some equity for when they downsize in 10 years time. Nobody “needs” the space but they are using their home as an investment.
My house is immodest in the sense that it’s a 5 bed (there are 6 of us). We bought the biggest house we could with the aim of not moving while the dc were in school. In order to do that we live in a boring place with bad infrastructure but cheap houses. I want to downsize in 5-10 years. What I want is.

At least 2 bedrooms (I’d like a spare for guests or as a soft place to land for an adult dc in trouble)
A kitchen big enough to fit a table for 4 in
A small garden/yard or decent sized balcony
Freehold or share of freehold
Good public transport links
Walkable to a high street with a mini supermarket and a few places to eat and ideally a library
A hallway
A laundry/utility room (or even a big cupboard)
Storage - I don’t want somewhere with nowhere to keep the vacuum cleaner or Christmas decorations.
Not surrounded by HMOs or students. Nice area - not necessarily “posh” but not sketchy.

I don’t think any of these things are immodest but there is not a chance that they will be cheaper than the 5 bed detached that I already live in, even if I could ever find such a thing.

I guess I just don’t get the UK housing mindset. I don’t like the idea of continously moving home and the downsize at the end. I am sentimental about my home and want to be in a place where I can live all my life and build memories in, even if small.
That’s a very european approach I guess but the big house far away from all amenities doesn’t appeal to me in the slightest

I completely agree @DinDinDin

My house is my home. I don't want it any other way

European houses are bigger so they don't have to build up equity in order to get something that fits their needs - they can just buy it straight off. Also can take their time in rented without rushing to buy because they don't get kicked out of rented as often as we do.

We don't live like Europeans becuase our housing stock isn't the same. We have more rooms per person than the EU average, but smaller square footage. It's comparing apples to oranges. I'm sure more people would happily live in urban flats with amenities, if more reasonably sized flats were available.

I don’t like the idea of continously moving home and the downsize at the end.

I can see you point but I’m in a household of 6. I don’t want to bring 4 kids of 2 sexes up in a 2 bed one bathroom house if I don’t have to and I don’t want to have to have a big house once they have left home. I don’t like the concept of a “forever house”. I want my house to meet my needs at the time, not decades in front of behind. I’m not at all sentimental though.

I'm sure more people would happily live in urban flats with amenities, if more reasonably sized flats were available.

Absolutely. Our town centres desperately need people living in them to keep them alive but there is little investment in city centre housing stock in most places. The larger Victorian and Edwardian houses are often really run down, and the modern flats are titchy. People don’t want to bring up kids in a flat with nowhere to keep a pair of shoes near the front door and where the kitchen, living room and dining room is all one small room and the max number of bedrooms is 2 (both tiny). Our public transport infrastructure is also poor so people are reluctant to give up their car altogether so are reluctant to move anywhere without any parking (London being the obvious exception).

@Zwicky but a family of 6 people is a very big family and I get it. A family of 4 though could for example easily live in a 2 bed property and in answer to @Ahugga yes it's true that they tend to be smaller in terms of sqm but it is the norm for families of 4 (even with kids of different gender) to live in 2 bed apartments in Europe whereas in the UK it's seen as an undesirable option, regardless of the actual size of the property.

@Ahugga I don't know whether it's the same across the whole country but decent sized 2 bed flats definitely exist in cities like London, Edinburgh etc.

Of course they exist, but there's not loads of them. Flats here are often poorly designed, a poky 2nd bedroom, no parking, no outdoor space at all, no storage, poor sound insulation etc. That's before we even touch upon leasehold issues. 2 bedrooms also isn't suitable long term for boy/girl siblings, particularly in our housing crisis where it's reasonable to assume kids will be at home into adulthood. I think there are a great many legitimate reasons for Brits to prefer houses vs the flats that are available. I'm not sure it is as normal as you think for boy/girl siblings to share in Europe. More likely they actually have far more 3+ bed flats than we do.

@Ahugga well I am from Europe and have friends from many countries in the EU and 2 bed is standard for most families. Wealthiest families often have 2 bed apartments in premium locations rather than 3 bed elsewhere, even with siblings of different gender. You just make it work and get creative.
Parking space isn’t common in Europe either.
I agree re leasehold being ridiculous though

You're pretty much ignoring all the other issues I raised though. You to have decided that Brits are just snobby about flats without acknowledging the differences in property markets and infrastructure. I'm also not sure opposite sex teenagers sharing is something to be quite so smug about.

@Ahugga nobody is being smug, I am just saying that people make it work elsewhere.
Flats here are often poorly designed - true but as I said there are also some decent ones, people are just snobbish about them in general

No parking - that's almost never the case in any country

No outdoor space at all - same abroad except maybe balconies are more common, but not big enough for kids to play in them

No storage - that's true

Poor sound insulation - this is similar elsewhere and I have noticed Brits generally hate having neighbours nearby and hearing others. It's fairly standard to be able to hear the neighbours loud TV or dinner parties in my home country too, even in nice fancy buildings.

When you look at the stats 'most" europeans are living in a flat or a detached house. Like half and half. But some bits of europe are more flats and others more detached houses.

In the uk half of us are in terraces or semi detached and the other half are split between flats and detacheds. We actually seem to have a low amount of detached homes compared to most of europe. We are quite like the netherlands.

It would be interesting to know what led to all the terraces in the uk v the flats of europe.

@Spendonsend the detached houses would be for those living rurally mainly. In most EU countries that isn't seen as aspirational though. The vast majority of families will want to live in a city flat, ideally as close to the centre as possible. In the UK it's the opposite, people tend to move out and get a house.

I kind of agree but it is all based on individual circumstances. There are definitely some people who move based on the ascetic of a house. However, I think that housing standards in the UK are pretty poor coupled with environmental noise laws being ineffective and this effects a different group of people.
I would have no issue living in a modest house, in a semi decent area. However, with the change to modern tech in the home, you now have people who live in terraced houses putting their xl televisions on the wall with no disregard to the occupants on the other side of the wall. Stereo systems that have bass that even down low still boom through the house. Also some people seem to have lost the ability to compromise and not adhere to normal societal standards. You can not know what is like to live in a house until you move in. Then you see the warts and all of an area.
I think once you have experienced problem neighbours you do suffer from a type of PTSD that changes your outlook about your home and the quest for the 'perfect house'.

I tend to agree with this, but the problem with house v flat here is that flats tend to be leasehold and houses freehold. I believe that’s pretty much unheard of elsewhere.

I've been having a nosey on Rightmove, a 2 bed flat that actually fits beds in both rooms is only £50k less than my house. I'd say that's a small price to pay for an extra bedroom, garden, driveway, and we're only 10 mins out of town on an excellent bus route. Why on earth would I choose the flat?

A lot of people are sentimental about their houses but one house may not provide all you need at every stage of your life. DH’s grandma bought a 3 bed terrace, bathroom downstairs, small yard. Very much what you are claiming is a modest home. She didn’t move, they couldn’t have afforded to when the her children were younger. She didn’t move when her husband died in his fifties and her children went away to university. She didn’t move as her children set up their lives in a different part of the country. She didn’t move when the houses either side of her and down the street were converted to university housing. She didn’t move when she could no longer manage to clean upstairs. By the time she could no longer cope with the house and couldn’t get upstairs to bed, it was too late to move and she had to go to a home. All because of memories in that house. Even though you can take your memories with you, they live in your mind, not in the bricks.

Exactly. I have a friend locally living in one of these with a 5 year old girl and 3 year old boy. She says herself, it is not enough living space to be desirable. Nowhere to hang 4 people's laundry, and no private space, and definitely nowhere to work from home while one parent looks after the 2 kids in the holidays. This flat is £200k and you can get a 2 bed house with garden for £225k with no monthly leasehold service charges. It's not just about "2 single beds and a double bed fit".

But 'making it work' I think is the crux of the matter here. If you can't afford a bigger house, you make it work in a 2 bed flat. However, if you can afford it you move to a larger place.
Who in their right mind would live in cramped conditions if they didn't have to?
2 bed might be standard for people you know in the EU, but the UK settled EU citizens I know all live in reasonable sized houses larger than 2 bedrooms.