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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Segregation at playtimes

81 replies

PlaytimeBlues · 20/03/2024 08:49

My DD, 9, is in year five. The class teacher has told us the kids are often falling out at playtimes with bickering and name-calling that has led to disruption in class.

They’ve decided to deal with this by dividing the children into groups at playtimes - most of the class is in a general group that can go where they like and interact with anyone as they please, and then two groups that have to wear bibs (yellow and green). The greens have to stay in one area, the yellows in a different area, and they are not allowed to move out of these designated areas. The general population are allowed to interact with the groups in bibs, if they choose to.

When this was introduced my DD was really upset, saying that she felt she was marked out as a ‘naughty kid’ by having to wear a bib, and unhappy that she couldn’t be with the friends she normally plays with. Friends in the free-range group can play with her, but only if they choose to go to the area she’s in. The teacher has insisted DD is not a ‘naughty kid’ and that this way of doing things is to encourage children to make different friendships - it’s not a punishment, but a way of defusing the arguments.

AIBU to feel uncomfortable with this? Or is this a perfectly normal way of dealing with behavioural issues? I feel like the bib-wearing and confinement to certain areas is stigmatising and it’s been going on for nearly a month now. I’m not one to complain to teachers lightly and feel I need some perspective on this.

OP posts:
moonfacer · 20/03/2024 09:50

PlaytimeBlues · 20/03/2024 09:46

We're not waiting to be told how to parent fgs, I'm just trying to illustrate that if the teacher had a problem with something specific, we would listen to the teacher and help to address it. We're not getting that kind of feedback though.

Show quote history

You're fine, OP, we get what you mean.

cloudchaos · 20/03/2024 09:51

I would speak to the teacher again OP. If your daughter isn't being "naughty" then I would tell the teacher you no longer want her in the bib group and ask for her to move to the general group. If she says that's not possible then she needs to explain why she's isolating your daughter as it doesn't make sense.

WhatNoRaisins · 20/03/2024 09:56

I'd have thought this would be a bit too shaming for current teaching methods these days. It doesn't seem right if they have put her in a naughty group while not being willing to discuss what the actual issues are. You can't just label people as naughty, they need to know what parts of their behaviour is naughty if they are going to change.

SpringSprungALeak · 20/03/2024 09:59

HelloMiss · 20/03/2024 08:52

So how would you deal with the disruption in class?

You say this is to help solve that problem...

It doesn't matter how the OP would solve the problem.

What matters is her DD has been put in one of the 'restricted' groups, she is upset & separated from her friends.

how would the teacher like to be put in a restricted side room at the pub & told it was so she could make new friends?? While all her friends were in the main part of the pub?

teacher needs to get the disruptive behaviour under control by dealing with the kids misbehaving! Not punishing the kids who haven't misbehaved.

@PlaytimeBlues are you breaking up for Easter this Friday? I'd be having a word with the teacher & say whatever her intentions, DD Feels like she's being punished and separated from her friends & if this system is staying in place please move DD to the general group!

Toomuch44 · 20/03/2024 10:00

Most schools won't segregate unless a situation is becoming difficult for them to manage, ie other children are regularly being upset, a lot more time is being spent on issues relating to a particular child and they're trying to reduce those situations.

Talk to the school, try and work out if they're being fair and what you can do to support your DD.

Delphiniumandlupins · 20/03/2024 10:02

I think you could go back to the teacher and ask if this policy has succeeded in reducing disruption in class and how much longer they plan to continue it.

Your DD's "nice" group of friends might not be fighting and swearing but do they bicker and name-call? Sometimes separating a couple of personalities in a class can change the whole dynamic

ArchesOfWisteria · 20/03/2024 10:03

It does sound stigmatising and unclear. Logically they’d at least rotate spaces and bibs about a bit so it wasn’t free range/ no bibs. The whole thing though does seem old fashioned. Circle time, play leaders etc would be healthier and teach them long term how to manage conflicts.
If it were my class I’d probably introduce some small group staggered play times with problem groups to guide them in healthier play. Some investment into learning social skills and conflict resolution. School is about whole child development. This seems like they are simply avoiding an area of development.
Behaviour charters, circle time… there’s so so many ways to teach these skills.

Ellie1015 · 20/03/2024 10:06

I would not be happy. It may not be intended as a punishment but the effect is a punishment.

I would call school explain you thought it was temporary but now been a month. Your dd feels like she must be naughty and it is impacting her self esteem. Ask how she gets out of the bib? If there is anything she needs to work on make sure dd does that and follow up next week. If not then surely they must agree that dd cant be stuck in restricted area indefinitely.

Original poster
PlaytimeBlues · 20/03/2024 10:16

Yes @SpringSprungALeak I'm due to see the teacher before the holidays and I will try to find out what will happen going forward.

OP posts:
Original poster
PlaytimeBlues · 20/03/2024 10:20

ArchesOfWisteria · 20/03/2024 10:03

It does sound stigmatising and unclear. Logically they’d at least rotate spaces and bibs about a bit so it wasn’t free range/ no bibs. The whole thing though does seem old fashioned. Circle time, play leaders etc would be healthier and teach them long term how to manage conflicts.
If it were my class I’d probably introduce some small group staggered play times with problem groups to guide them in healthier play. Some investment into learning social skills and conflict resolution. School is about whole child development. This seems like they are simply avoiding an area of development.
Behaviour charters, circle time… there’s so so many ways to teach these skills.

This is interesting, thank you. Not being in the profession I have no idea what techniques are used, just that this doesn't sit right with me. I definitely get a feeling that this is a sticking plaster rather than teaching the children conflict resolution and so on, but I do feel for the teachers and everything they have to deal with.

OP posts:
Original poster
PlaytimeBlues · 20/03/2024 10:21

Thank you so much for your thoughts everyone, it's really helpful to have a sounding board.

OP posts:
Cheesetoasts · 20/03/2024 10:24

Why is your child in a bib if they’re not being classified as ‘naughty’?

Surely that should have been your first question

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 20/03/2024 10:27

This sounds awful OP. It’s not on at all. You need to speak to the school and escalate if needs be. I agree it’s almost encouraging bullying - it’s almost bullying by the school!

MummaMummaJumma · 20/03/2024 10:30

What have the other parents said? There’s power in numbers.

Original poster
PlaytimeBlues · 20/03/2024 10:38

MummaMummaJumma · 20/03/2024 10:30

What have the other parents said? There’s power in numbers.

I've spoken to one other parent, who felt the same as I did. I don't know if it's coincidence but her child has been freed from the bib. We both raised similar concerns at the beginning and got similar answers about how it's not a punishment etc etc.

I've heard another parent went in to see the teacher, but I don't know who it was.

OP posts:
GrumpySock · 20/03/2024 10:52

I'd feel uncomfortable about this. It would be ok if the groups changes daily but it has been like this for a month.

SBHon · 20/03/2024 10:56

High spirits, she can get pulled into 'showing off' in front of a group. She's never been in trouble for fighting or swearing at teachers for example, as some are on a regular basis.
Thats exactly the type of issue they’re trying to resolve by separating children though? The low level stuff, not big issues like fighting and swearing.

Your DD can have a nice group of friends and still be a part of the bickering and name calling issue that was the start of all this.

Have you asked your DD who in the opposite colour group she rubs up the wrong way with?

Runaway1 · 20/03/2024 11:02

From a psychology standpoint, if you wanted to start the bullying, targeting and exclusion of a particular group, this is exactly how you would do it. Marks group put as ‘different’, with negative characteristics and fewer privileges than the others. Mmm, where have we seen this before in history? It doesn’t sit right because it isn’t right. I’ve never heard of such a thing to manage social issues.

5128gap · 20/03/2024 11:02

I think I'd be asking for a conversation with the teacher where I could ask a number of questions. For me, these would include: What convinced them this was a positive solution? Is it based on any research? How was it presented to the children? Is the messaging that bib wearing is a negative? If not, how are they mitigating it being seen as such? What criteria was used to select which group children were put into? How frequently are groups reviewed? What other options have been tried? What is the longer term plan to support children to behave appropriately? I'd need answers to these questions before I felt qualified to complain.

Original poster
PlaytimeBlues · 20/03/2024 11:03

SBHon · 20/03/2024 10:56

High spirits, she can get pulled into 'showing off' in front of a group. She's never been in trouble for fighting or swearing at teachers for example, as some are on a regular basis.
Thats exactly the type of issue they’re trying to resolve by separating children though? The low level stuff, not big issues like fighting and swearing.

Your DD can have a nice group of friends and still be a part of the bickering and name calling issue that was the start of all this.

Have you asked your DD who in the opposite colour group she rubs up the wrong way with?

This is the thing, I can't work out a rhyme or reason why who is in what group. One of her best friends is in the other colour bib! They are both bright and articulate and generally well-behaved, but yes, they will join in bickering sometimes. I've never been pulled in by the teacher to discuss a problem with DD.

OP posts:
Original poster
PlaytimeBlues · 20/03/2024 11:05

Runaway1 · 20/03/2024 11:02

From a psychology standpoint, if you wanted to start the bullying, targeting and exclusion of a particular group, this is exactly how you would do it. Marks group put as ‘different’, with negative characteristics and fewer privileges than the others. Mmm, where have we seen this before in history? It doesn’t sit right because it isn’t right. I’ve never heard of such a thing to manage social issues.

Haha, I have privately drawn a comparison between wearing bibs and sewing yellow stars onto clothes, but it's probably best I don't accuse them of being Nazis Blush

OP posts:
Original poster
PlaytimeBlues · 20/03/2024 11:06

5128gap · 20/03/2024 11:02

I think I'd be asking for a conversation with the teacher where I could ask a number of questions. For me, these would include: What convinced them this was a positive solution? Is it based on any research? How was it presented to the children? Is the messaging that bib wearing is a negative? If not, how are they mitigating it being seen as such? What criteria was used to select which group children were put into? How frequently are groups reviewed? What other options have been tried? What is the longer term plan to support children to behave appropriately? I'd need answers to these questions before I felt qualified to complain.

All good questions thanks, many of which are already on my list.

OP posts:
PuttingDownRoots · 20/03/2024 11:08

It reminds me of the experiment where Elementary School children were separated by eye colour, and one set given special privileges.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott

Becgoz7 · 20/03/2024 11:10

PlaytimeBlues · 20/03/2024 08:49

My DD, 9, is in year five. The class teacher has told us the kids are often falling out at playtimes with bickering and name-calling that has led to disruption in class.

They’ve decided to deal with this by dividing the children into groups at playtimes - most of the class is in a general group that can go where they like and interact with anyone as they please, and then two groups that have to wear bibs (yellow and green). The greens have to stay in one area, the yellows in a different area, and they are not allowed to move out of these designated areas. The general population are allowed to interact with the groups in bibs, if they choose to.

When this was introduced my DD was really upset, saying that she felt she was marked out as a ‘naughty kid’ by having to wear a bib, and unhappy that she couldn’t be with the friends she normally plays with. Friends in the free-range group can play with her, but only if they choose to go to the area she’s in. The teacher has insisted DD is not a ‘naughty kid’ and that this way of doing things is to encourage children to make different friendships - it’s not a punishment, but a way of defusing the arguments.

AIBU to feel uncomfortable with this? Or is this a perfectly normal way of dealing with behavioural issues? I feel like the bib-wearing and confinement to certain areas is stigmatising and it’s been going on for nearly a month now. I’m not one to complain to teachers lightly and feel I need some perspective on this.

This is awful! I'm so glad that i home educate!

allthemiddlechildrenoftheworld · 20/03/2024 11:10

@PlaytimeBlues well just think for a minute! if the teacher says she is not a trouble maker, but she has to wear a bib for playground, then what is she doing? she is obviously doing something! maybe picking on someone>