Unwanted touch (non-sexual)

[niadainud]

At a group event (more like a conference than a social function) man who I know reasonably well lands his hand on my shoulder and leaves it there. I take hold of his arm (firmly, but not aggressively) and remove it from my shoulder and carry on chatting to people. No big drama as far as I was concerned.

A couple of days later I receive a furious message telling me how rude I had been for doing this and that I should have told him I didn't like being touched. Was I?

Yes, I could have broken off the conversation to politely ask him to remove his hand, but I guess I felt that would almost be making more of it. It all happened very quickly.

Other relevant info: this man claims to be a feminist and general friend and ally to all. No sexual history between us.

these are actually the worst types. By bei nice, feminist and friend to all it’s like anything he does can only be seen as friendly. But as we can see it’s actually just buying him some grace for some behaviour you don’t like. And then because he’s nice etc you can’t call him out.

So it’s a bit manipulative. I’m not sure what I would do here. Is it worth a chat with a manger/ hr explaining the context? I think if you just email him back explaining that you didn’t want to be touched so removed his hand, and thought that by saying it it would be worse.

What else does he need you to tell him:

• please don’t pinch my bum
• please don’t shout at me

etc

how ridiculous.

he’s just been embarrassed and is blaming it on you. I bet no one else in that room has thought about it again.

I am quite obviously in the minority here, but as a woman I wouldn't even flinch if I was chatting in a group conversation and someone put their arm on my shoulder. I'm definitely not saying you shouldn't have moved him, you have totally done right by you, but I feel like I'm questioning myself that this wouldn't bother me but I'm the only one saying that 🙈🙈

His annoyance will be because other people saw his "rejection".
You owe him absolutely nothing so let him tantrum.

It was a colleague, not a friend.

Would the hypothetical woman send a furious email complaining about OP's rudeness?

In my experience most women would immediately apologise for making someone feel uncomfortable.

As a PP pointed out the power dynamics are different, the furious email suggests the male colleague is very aware of this.

Men who claim to be feminists or allies are the absolute worst.

I just wouldn't bother replying to be honest. Don't give him any more of your time or attention.

I should have told him I didn't like being touched. You shouldn't need to tell a colleague that you don't like being touched.

Don't reply. I'd leave it. He's has his rant. No good will come from it. You were obviously not wrong. There's no email on this earth, written by you, me, Austen, Shakespeare, Grisham or Rowling that will make him see that. So I wouldn't waste my time.

If he sends another I'd reply "we'll have to agree to disagree". And anything beyond that I'd go to HR.

Agreed. Where would it stop?

Please don't kill me, steal my car, move it to my house and throw me out.

No, wait, it's only touching women which isn't seen as intrinsically wrong. Yeah. Right.

I think we all know the difference. A hand on a shoulder in a buddy way, man to man, is very different to the "saking a claim" dominance or even protective connotation behind a hand on a shoulder man to woman. No op, you did the right thing, he is making his embarrassment your fault - some feminist, hey!

Yes this women in general don't want the "buddy buddy" on the shoulders or wherever with men that they are not friends with its intrusive and domineering, men thinking its OK to touch women .like this need to have a word with themselves. Him saying I'm a feminist or ally or whatever is just him saying you should be thankful I'm treating you like one of the "blokes" .

Of course he wasn't wrong ! Well in his eyes only, after all he he is a man and they can never be wrong. i Personally i would reply "touch me again and i will knock you out" but as you are probably much nicer than me, reply with " you have no right to touch me, next time i shall make a formal complaint"

YANBU and he’s made himself look like a total plank with that reaction. He doesn’t get to be offended that the hand that he put on you without asking was removed by you without comment. Would he rather you make a more public scene of it by saying, ‘Can you please not touch me without consent?’ Would that appeal more to his ‘feminism’?! It’s a shame that his ego can’t see the situation for what it is.

Don't apologise for his embarrassment, it's not up to you to have to state your boundaries when it should be implied. He knows what consent is and should understand personal space but overstepped and hates that he was visibly called out. Turn it on him and ask if he puts hands in his male peers and how they react, ask how that just because he decided to put his hand on your shoulder that you don't need to accept that decision

I probably would reply to say 'I shouldn't need to tell a work colleague that uninvited touching is unacceptable'. And cc HR.

I’d take the opportunity to educate him I know both men and women who are touchy they do it to everyone nothing remotely sexual at all
the type that stand too close you in your personal space
there oblivious and genuinely unaware

This ☝ 100%

I've found the ones to watch most are the ones who claim to be feminists and claim to be allys and thoroughly left wing and Liberal.

I've seen too often it being used as a way in under the radar and becoming over familiar and confidants of more vulnerable women. Its his special badge and you should not have embarrassed him and should have accepted his touch because he's 'not like other men'.

Totally agree with this - he would most likely NOT be doing this to another man

There is no similarity in this at all.

It's a sort of 'reassurance' or 'caring for' gesture, I could only imagine doing this with one of my children, if they were smaller than me and under 12. I can't imagine doing it to another adult unless they obviously needed reassurance or support in some way.
What a prat!

Do not reply. You don't want anything you say on this point to be in writing. Save the message and store it on a secure cloud. If he continues either with further touching or further messages it would helpful to have a complete record with dates and a traceable footprint.

You had every right to do what you did. You're not in any way in the wrong here. He's crossed the line twice: one with uninvited contact and another with a highly inappropriate message. If he approaches you again I'd tell him verbally, and forcefully, to back off or you will interpret his behaviour as harassment.

Fucking male entitlement is off the scale and makes my blood boil. Who in the hell does he think he is?

THIS! Men who style themselves as 'allies' are normally the bloody worst!

Involve HR

I would think it really odd if I were chatting with colleagues or in any sort of professional capacity and someone was touching someone else, whatever sex they are. It would jar and everyone would notice because it isn't acceptable workplace behaviour.

This is a real bugbear of mine, I really don’t understand why people think it’s acceptable to touch you without consent. I hate all of this touchy feely hugging lark. My mum brought us up with the mantra that we didn’t have to let people touch us if we didn’t want- this included hugging and kissing family members.
it’s led me to have very firm boundaries, something which close friends and family joke about at times, but it does the job.
I find it wholly unacceptable that people (ranging from family to random acquaintances) feel they can override your choice. I would message the idiot back saying that you were even more angry that he touched you without consent.

I would ask him why he thinks he doesn’t have to ask before he puts his hands on you, but you do have to ask for him not to.