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To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?

1000 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/03/2024 09:19

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

10 JUNE 2020
J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues

Warning: The below content is not appropriate for children. Please check with an adult before you read this page. To go back to the children’s page, please click heree_.

This isn’t an easy piece to write, for reasons that will shortly become clear, but I know it’s time to explain myself on an issue surrounded by toxicity. I write this without any desire to add to that toxicity.

For people who don’t know: last December I tweeted my support for Maya Forstater, a tax specialist who’d lost her job for what were deemed ‘transphobic’ tweets. She took her case to an employment tribunal, asking the judge to rule on whether a philosophical belief that sex is determined by biology is protected in law. Judge Tayler ruled that it wasn’t.

My interest in trans issues pre-dated Maya’s case by almost two years, during which I followed the debate around the concept of gender identity closely. I’ve met trans people, and read sundry books, blogs and articles by trans people, gender specialists, intersex people, psychologists, safeguarding experts, social workers and doctors, and followed the discourse online and in traditional media. On one level, my interest in this issue has been professional, because I’m writing a crime series, set in the present day, and my fictional female detective is of an age to be interested in, and affected by, these issues herself, but on another, it’s intensely personal, as I’m about to explain.

All the time I’ve been researching and learning, accusations and threats from trans activists have been bubbling in my Twitter timeline. This was initially triggered by a ‘like’. When I started taking an interest in gender identity and transgender matters, I began screenshotting comments that interested me, as a way of reminding myself what I might want to research later. On one occasion, I absent-mindedly ‘liked’ instead of screenshotting. That single ‘like’ was deemed evidence of wrongthink, and a persistent low level of harassment began.

Months later, I compounded my accidental ‘like’ crime by following Magdalen Berns on Twitter. Magdalen was an immensely brave young feminist and lesbian who was dying of an aggressive brain tumour. I followed her because I wanted to contact her directly, which I succeeded in doing. However, as Magdalen was a great believer in the importance of biological sex, and didn’t believe lesbians should be called bigots for not dating trans women with penises, dots were joined in the heads of twitter trans activists, and the level of social media abuse increased.

I mention all this only to explain that I knew perfectly well what was going to happen when I supported Maya. I must have been on my fourth or fifth cancellation by then. I expected the threats of violence, to be told I was literally killing trans people with my hate, to be called cunt and bitch and, of course, for my books to be burned, although one particularly abusive man told me he’d composted them.

What I didn’t expect in the aftermath of my cancellation was the avalanche of emails and letters that came showering down upon me, the overwhelming majority of which were positive, grateful and supportive. They came from a cross-section of kind, empathetic and intelligent people, some of them working in fields dealing with gender dysphoria and trans people, who’re all deeply concerned about the way a socio-political concept is influencing politics, medical practice and safeguarding.

They’re worried about the dangers to young people, gay people and about the erosion of women’s and girl’s rights. Above all, they’re worried about a climate of fear that serves nobody – least of all trans youth – well.

I’d stepped back from Twitter for many months both before and after tweeting support for Maya, because I knew it was doing nothing good for my mental health. I only returned because I wanted to share a free children’s book during the pandemic. Immediately, activists who clearly believe themselves to be good, kind and progressive people swarmed back into my timeline, assuming a right to police my speech, accuse me of hatred, call me misogynistic slurs and, above all – as every woman involved in this debate will know – TERF.

If you didn’t already know – and why should you? – ‘TERF’ is an acronym coined by trans activists, which stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. In practice, a huge and diverse cross-section of women are currently being called TERFs and the vast majority have never been radical feminists. Examples of so-called TERFs range from the mother of a gay child who was afraid their child wanted to transition to escape homophobic bullying, to a hitherto totally unfeminist older lady who’s vowed never to visit Marks & Spencer again because they’re allowing any man who says they identify as a woman into the women’s changing rooms. Ironically, radical feminists aren’t even trans-exclusionary – they include trans men in their feminism, because they were born women.

But accusations of TERFery have been sufficient to intimidate many people, institutions and organisations I once admired, who’re cowering before the tactics of the playground. ‘They’ll call us transphobic!’ ‘They’ll say I hate trans people!’ What next, they’ll say you’ve got fleas? Speaking as a biological woman, a lot of people in positions of power really need to grow a pair (which is doubtless literally possible, according to the kind of people who argue that clownfish prove humans aren’t a dimorphic species).

So why am I doing this? Why speak up? Why not quietly do my research and keep my head down?

Well, I’ve got five reasons for being worried about the new trans activism, and deciding I need to speak up.

Firstly, I have a charitable trust that focuses on alleviating social deprivation in Scotland, with a particular emphasis on women and children. Among other things, my trust supports projects for female prisoners and for survivors of domestic and sexual abuse. I also fund medical research into MS, a disease that behaves very differently in men and women. It’s been clear to me for a while that the new trans activism is having (or is likely to have, if all its demands are met) a significant impact on many of the causes I support, because it’s pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender.

The second reason is that I’m an ex-teacher and the founder of a children’s charity, which gives me an interest in both education and safeguarding. Like many others, I have deep concerns about the effect the trans rights movement is having on both.

The third is that, as a much-banned author, I’m interested in freedom of speech and have publicly defended it, even unto Donald Trump.

The fourth is where things start to get truly personal. I’m concerned about the huge explosion in young women wishing to transition and also about the increasing numbers who seem to be detransitioning (returning to their original sex), because they regret taking steps that have, in some cases, altered their bodies irrevocably, and taken away their fertility. Some say they decided to transition after realising they were same-sex attracted, and that transitioning was partly driven by homophobia, either in society or in their families.

Most people probably aren’t aware – I certainly wasn’t, until I started researching this issue properly – that ten years ago, the majority of people wanting to transition to the opposite sex were male. That ratio has now reversed. The UK has experienced a 4400% increase in girls being referred for transitioning treatment. Autistic girls are hugely overrepresented in their numbers.
The same phenomenon has been seen in the US. In 2018, American physician and researcher Lisa Littman set out to explore it. In an interview, she said:
‘Parents online were describing a very unusual pattern of transgender-identification where multiple friends and even entire friend groups became transgender-identified at the same time. I would have been remiss had I not considered social contagion and peer influences as potential factors.’
Littman mentioned Tumblr, Reddit, Instagram and YouTube as contributing factors to Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, where she believes that in the realm of transgender identification ‘youth have created particularly insular echo chambers.’
Her paper caused a furore. She was accused of bias and of spreading misinformation about transgender people, subjected to a tsunami of abuse and a concerted campaign to discredit both her and her work. The journal took the paper offline and re-reviewed it before republishing it. However, her career took a similar hit to that suffered by Maya Forstater. Lisa Littman had dared challenge one of the central tenets of trans activism, which is that a person’s gender identity is innate, like sexual orientation. Nobody, the activists insisted, could ever be persuaded into being trans.

The argument of many current trans activists is that if you don’t let a gender dysphoric teenager transition, they will kill themselves. In an article explaining why he resigned from the Tavistock (an NHS gender clinic in England) psychiatrist Marcus Evans stated that claims that children will kill themselves if not permitted to transition do not ‘align substantially with any robust data or studies in this area. Nor do they align with the cases I have encountered over decades as a psychotherapist.’

The writings of young trans men reveal a group of notably sensitive and clever people. The more of their accounts of gender dysphoria I’ve read, with their insightful descriptions of anxiety, dissociation, eating disorders, self-harm and self-hatred, the more I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition. The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge. I struggled with severe OCD as a teenager. If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.

When I read about the theory of gender identity, I remember how mentally sexless I felt in youth. I remember Colette’s description of herself as a ‘mental hermaphrodite’ and Simone de Beauvoir’s words: ‘It is perfectly natural for the future woman to feel indignant at the limitations posed upon her by her sex. The real question is not why she should reject them: the problem is rather to understand why she accepts them.’
As I didn’t have a realistic possibility of becoming a man back in the 1980s, it had to be books and music that got me through both my mental health issues and the sexualised scrutiny and judgement that sets so many girls to war against their bodies in their teens. Fortunately for me, I found my own sense of otherness, and my ambivalence about being a woman, reflected in the work of female writers and musicians who reassured me that, in spite of everything a sexist world tries to throw at the female-bodied, it’s fine not to feel pink, frilly and compliant inside your own head; it’s OK to feel confused, dark, both sexual and non-sexual, unsure of what or who you are.

I want to be very clear here: I know transition will be a solution for some gender dysphoric people, although I’m also aware through extensive research that studies have consistently shown that between 60-90% of gender dysphoric teens will grow out of their dysphoria. Again and again I’ve been told to ‘just meet some trans people.’ I have: in addition to a few younger people, who were all adorable, I happen to know a self-described transsexual woman who’s older than I am and wonderful. Although she’s open about her past as a gay man, I’ve always found it hard to think of her as anything other than a woman, and I believe (and certainly hope) she’s completely happy to have transitioned. Being older, though, she went through a long and rigorous process of evaluation, psychotherapy and staged transformation. The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this.
We’re living through the most misogynistic period I’ve experienced. Back in the 80s, I imagined that my future daughters, should I have any, would have it far better than I ever did, but between the backlash against feminism and a porn-saturated online culture, I believe things have got significantly worse for girls. Never have I seen women denigrated and dehumanised to the extent they are now. From the leader of the free world’s long history of sexual assault accusations and his proud boast of ‘grabbing them by the pussy’, to the incel (‘involuntarily celibate’) movement that rages against women who won’t give them sex, to the trans activists who declare that TERFs need punching and re-educating, men across the political spectrum seem to agree: women are asking for trouble. Everywhere, women are being told to shut up and sit down, or else.

I’ve read all the arguments about femaleness not residing in the sexed body, and the assertions that biological women don’t have common experiences, and I find them, too, deeply misogynistic and regressive. It’s also clear that one of the objectives of denying the importance of sex is to erode what some seem to see as the cruelly segregationist idea of women having their own biological realities or – just as threatening – unifying realities that make them a cohesive political class. The hundreds of emails I’ve received in the last few days prove this erosion concerns many others just as much. It isn’t enough for women to be trans allies. Women must accept and admit that there is no material difference between trans women and themselves.

But, as many women have said before me, ‘woman’ is not a costume. ‘Woman’ is not an idea in a man’s head. ‘Woman’ is not a pink brain, a liking for Jimmy Choos or any of the other sexist ideas now somehow touted as progressive. Moreover, the ‘inclusive’ language that calls female people ‘menstruators’ and ‘people with vulvas’ strikes many women as dehumanising and demeaning. I understand why trans activists consider this language to be appropriate and kind, but for those of us who’ve had degrading slurs spat at us by violent men, it’s not neutral, it’s hostile and alienating.

Which brings me to the fifth reason I’m deeply concerned about the consequences of the current trans activism.

I’ve been in the public eye now for over twenty years and have never talked publicly about being a domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor. This isn’t because I’m ashamed those things happened to me, but because they’re traumatic to revisit and remember. I also feel protective of my daughter from my first marriage. I didn’t want to claim sole ownership of a story that belongs to her, too. However, a short while ago, I asked her how she’d feel if I were publicly honest about that part of my life, and she encouraged me to go ahead.

I’m mentioning these things now not in an attempt to garner sympathy, but out of solidarity with the huge numbers of women who have histories like mine, who’ve been slurred as bigots for having concerns around single-sex spaces.
I managed to escape my first violent marriage with some difficulty, but I’m now married to a truly good and principled man, safe and secure in ways I never in a million years expected to be. However, the scars left by violence and sexual assault don’t disappear, no matter how loved you are, and no matter how much money you’ve made. My perennial jumpiness is a family joke – and even I know it’s funny – but I pray my daughters never have the same reasons I do for hating sudden loud noises, or finding people behind me when I haven’t heard them approaching.

If you could come inside my head and understand what I feel when I read about a trans woman dying at the hands of a violent man, you’d find solidarity and kinship. I have a visceral sense of the terror in which those trans women will have spent their last seconds on earth, because I too have known moments of blind fear when I realised that the only thing keeping me alive was the shaky self-restraint of my attacker.

I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.

So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth.

On Saturday morning, I read that the Scottish government is proceeding with its controversial gender recognition plans, which will in effect mean that all a man needs to ‘become a woman’ is to say he’s one. To use a very contemporary word, I was ‘triggered’. Ground down by the relentless attacks from trans activists on social media, when I was only there to give children feedback about pictures they’d drawn for my book under lockdown, I spent much of Saturday in a very dark place inside my head, as memories of a serious sexual assault I suffered in my twenties recurred on a loop. That assault happened at a time and in a space where I was vulnerable, and a man capitalised on an opportunity. I couldn’t shut out those memories and I was finding it hard to contain my anger and disappointment about the way I believe my government is playing fast and loose with womens and girls’ safety.

Late on Saturday evening, scrolling through children’s pictures before I went to bed, I forgot the first rule of Twitter – never, ever expect a nuanced conversation – and reacted to what I felt was degrading language about women. I spoke up about the importance of sex and have been paying the price ever since. I was transphobic, I was a cunt, a bitch, a TERF, I deserved cancelling, punching and death. You are Voldemort said one person, clearly feeling this was the only language I’d understand.

It would be so much easier to tweet the approved hashtags – because of course trans rights are human rights and of course trans lives matter – scoop up the woke cookies and bask in a virtue-signalling afterglow. There’s joy, relief and safety in conformity. As Simone de Beauvoir also wrote, “… without a doubt it is more comfortable to endure blind bondage than to work for one’s liberation; the dead, too, are better suited to the earth than the living.”
Huge numbers of women are justifiably terrified by the trans activists; I know this because so many have got in touch with me to tell their stories. They’re afraid of doxxing, of losing their jobs or their livelihoods, and of violence.

But endlessly unpleasant as its constant targeting of me has been, I refuse to bow down to a movement that I believe is doing demonstrable harm in seeking to erode ‘woman’ as a political and biological class and offering cover to predators like few before it. I stand alongside the brave women and men, gay, straight and trans, who’re standing up for freedom of speech and thought, and for the rights and safety of some of the most vulnerable in our society: young gay kids, fragile teenagers, and women who’re reliant on and wish to retain their single sex spaces. Polls show those women are in the vast majority, and exclude only those privileged or lucky enough never to have come up against male violence or sexual assault, and who’ve never troubled to educate themselves on how prevalent it is.

The one thing that gives me hope is that the women who can protest and organise, are doing so, and they have some truly decent men and trans people alongside them. Political parties seeking to appease the loudest voices in this debate are ignoring women’s concerns at their peril. In the UK, women are reaching out to each other across party lines, concerned about the erosion of their hard-won rights and widespread intimidation. None of the gender critical women I’ve talked to hates trans people; on the contrary. Many of them became interested in this issue in the first place out of concern for trans youth, and they’re hugely sympathetic towards trans adults who simply want to live their lives, but who’re facing a backlash for a brand of activism they don’t endorse. The supreme irony is that the attempt to silence women with the word ‘TERF’ may have pushed more young women towards radical feminism than the movement’s seen in decades.
The last thing I want to say is this. I haven’t written this essay in the hope that anybody will get out a violin for me, not even a teeny-weeny one. I’m extraordinarily fortunate; I’m a survivor, certainly not a victim. I’ve only mentioned my past because, like every other human being on this planet, I have a complex backstory, which shapes my fears, my interests and my opinions. I never forget that inner complexity when I’m creating a fictional character and I certainly never forget it when it comes to trans people.

All I’m asking – all I want – is for similar empathy, similar understanding, to be extended to the many millions of women whose sole crime is wanting their concerns to be heard without receiving threats and abuse.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
56
Chersfrozenface · 20/03/2024 16:46

It's not just open plan changing areas, though.

This is an extract from a Wales Online report of a court case. Readers will note that this happened in a unisex changing area with cubicles.

"Footage has emerged from the moments before and after a voyeur was caught filming a 15-year-old girl under a changing room cubicle partition. Liam Warlow was sentenced at Swansea Crown Court on December 20 after attempting to see a child in a state of undress at the city's LC 2 water park.

The Crown Prosecution Service has now released a CCTV video showing Warlow, 27, loitering in the unisex changing area as the victim enters a nearby cubicle. The footage then cuts to the moment he sprints away, having been spotted trying to film the girl from the adjoining cubicle."

NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 16:52

No person with a penis would be excluded. There would be equivalent spaces for people with penises to change and an additional unisex space where anyone can go. Options to suit everyone.

No advocate of sex segregation has any problem with the provision of additional unisex spaces. Why, then, do the nudity champions have a problem with the provision of additional sex-specific places? If it's not bigoted of a Muslim woman to wish to undress away from men, what's the problem with providing such a space?

Is mivona suggesting that single sex spaces should be unlawful? That Muslim women (and others, of course) should be legally prohibited from having a changing space without men in it? Even when there are equal men-only and unisex spaces too?

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 20/03/2024 16:56

mivona · 18/03/2024 20:17

If prisons are unsafe, then maybe that needs to be addressed, rather than making blanket judgements over when trans men and women should be lodged. Because the issue is not their genitals, but the violence.

How are you going to police who uses the toilets or changing rooms then? All the transwomen I know simply want someplace safe to pee.

Do you think we should have any segregated spaces at all?

What is the difference between a transwoman in ladies facilities and Dave the Bloke who knows he's a bloke, using them?

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 20/03/2024 16:58

I don't know why it matters. I have been nude in saunas, nude on beaches. I have no problem with nude men, or being nude in front of them. Why are you?

//

You have consented to that.

If I don't consent, I don't consent. It's a simple as that. And my young teen daughter sure as hell doesn't need to explain herself to anyone when she says NO

EasternStandard · 20/03/2024 16:59

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 20/03/2024 16:58

I don't know why it matters. I have been nude in saunas, nude on beaches. I have no problem with nude men, or being nude in front of them. Why are you?

//

You have consented to that.

If I don't consent, I don't consent. It's a simple as that. And my young teen daughter sure as hell doesn't need to explain herself to anyone when she says NO

If I don't consent, I don't consent. It's a simple as that. And my young teen daughter sure as hell doesn't need to explain herself to anyone when she says NO

Exactly

WandaWomblesaurus · 20/03/2024 17:13

eu.sj-r.com/story/lifestyle/food/2011/07/13/seven-book-harry-potter-series/41760219007/#

Among the items Rowling describes as part of meals and feasts at Hogwarts: pumpkin juice, meat pies, tripe, stew, fried sausages, roast beef and chicken, shepherd’s pie, Cornish pasties, lamb chops, soup, steak and kidney pudding, black pudding, jelly slugs, fizzing whizbees, marshmallows, baked pumpkin, jacket potatoes, chips, peas, carrots, gravy, ketchup, custard tart, mint humbugs, ice cream, treacle tart, chocolate éclairs, jam doughnuts, rice pudding, fudge flies, pork chops, mashed potatoes, porridge, kippers, eggs and bacon, buttered toast with jam, cornflakes, turkey sandwiches, Christmas pudding, eggnog, trifle and Christmas cake.
“It’s heavy, but nourishing,” said Bucholz about the food in “Harry Potter.” “It’s very hearty, country fare for working families.”

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 20/03/2024 17:20

mivona · 18/03/2024 15:49

Why does biological sex even matter, unless you are wanting to reproduce or requiring reproductive healthcare?

My feminism was/is to free everyone from being constrained by their perceived sex and presumptions being made about what they can and cannot do as a consequence.

Why does biological sex even matter?

Because it does matter to many people. Sport for one very easy example. And for single sex spaces designed for safety, privacy and dignity.

However, it also matters for many other things too.

Such as correctly identifying a group who is being oppressed and discriminated against and why? It matters to describe a group's unique needs that is related to their sex category, including health for female people.

If your 'feminism' is to 'free everyone from being constrained by their perceived sex', it was not 'feminism'. You seem to be talking about an egaliteranian belief. Or you had a misconception about what feminism was about.

Feminism did not expect female people to no longer be indescribable as a unique category. Because that would not alleviate female people from the negative sexist discrimination they face, but it would also not allow the necessary equitable accommodations to be implemented that female people need to fully participate in life. I see this error made quite often though.

WandaWomblesaurus · 20/03/2024 17:23

Willy the Wizard leapt out from behind the cubicle door with his ukulele and started playing the first song off his album "Utopian Nudist"

OP posts:
WandaWomblesaurus · 20/03/2024 17:35

I often wonder how sex denialists account for how many penis people outnumber vagina people in terms of who is doing raping and killing if there's no difference between penis people and vagina people.

OP posts:
PaperBauble · 20/03/2024 17:41

Why does biological sex even matter, unless you are wanting to reproduce or requiring reproductive healthcare?

My feminism was/is to free everyone from being constrained by their perceived sex and presumptions being made about what they can and cannot do as a consequence

Difference in sexed bodies is just a fact of life. That’s biology, and in many areas of life those differences matter profoundly. Especially where females are vulnerable or exploitable by males. The stereotypes we impose (sex role stereotypes) and the behaviors we expect is gender, and that’s our social conditioning. I think you are confusing the two.

Helleofabore · 20/03/2024 18:16

I see from the thread that we have had all the trope posted and no real engagement with any of the answers. I do see why posters are frustrated.

We have had:

The becoming common mispresentation of what the aims of feminism in the past was. I mean, that could be just a misunderstanding but it seems like a major error to me. And perhaps a major misunderstanding of types of discrimination.

And the dismissive 'why does it matter' anyway?

We have what seems to be denial that a mature middle aged man is successfully swimming in events aimed at children. I didn't see any engagement for countering the sports issue. Did I miss it? Did I miss the acknowledgement that in sports sex has been proven to matter a great deal? Cynically, was there a pivot to chess and equestrian? I do enjoy those, did I miss that?

It felt like a false claim of what seems like biological essentialism and that discussion of female people's unique needs being somehow connected to us being reduced to our reproductive capacity was made. Again, I could be mistaken in this interpretation of that post but it also seems to be connected to the misrepresentation of feminism too.

I noticed that the really flawed article from Scientific America was posted. The one that has been very soundly debunked by scientists about sex categories of humans being complicated and more than just male and female. If I remember correctly, this article leverages and politicises people with Differences of Sex Development to wedge open sex categories to enable them to include people of the opposite sex. But hey, don't let pseudo science interrupt anyone. I wonder though, do those posting that article ever wonder why there are no recent articles that support it????

We have also had the usual 'who should use the female toilet' picture roll out. Which is leveraging female transgender people to try to convince others to allow male people to access single sex spaces. Which is misogynistic in nature. And it ignores the many female transgender people who also have come onto MN to tell women that they actively seek to find alternative solutions for their unique needs after they have taken testosterone. Because they recognise as female people themselves that their presence can cause distress to other female people and they do not wish to do that. Those picture roll outs also never prove a thing because in real life, it is likely the majority of female people will correctly sex a male person. Those hips don't lie. Nor do the numerous male cues that don't change with treatment. And often, even those extreme facial modifications, requiring a person's face to be peeled downwards and numerous bones shaved, cheek implants, hair lines lowered and even the distance between the nose and the top of the lip, are often not that successful.

We also had the 'if there is a problem with prisons' then fix it. Very dismissive in nature of the reality of what is happening. And considering the harms being done are mainly to female people, probably quite a misogynistic dismissal too. And fucking hardly feminist.

We also had the 'I am ok with it' whataboutery that ignores consent issues in the ploy to make another irrelevant point. Just because one person with low boundaries is perfectly happy with being naked doesn't mean that any other person has to accept their boundaries being lowered.

This seems to be connected with the irrelevant claim that yes, there is gender neutral facilities out there. That one seems to ignore that the issue is that there are plenty of communal single sex spaces and that the existence of one doesn't change the needs relating to the other. Nor does it mean that no discussion into the needs of women and girls for single sex spaces should be dismissed because of the existence of some gender neutral spaces.

There was also the 'they just want to pee' tactic for allowing male people into the female single sex spaces and then the pivot to leveraging of female trans people tactic too. And the emotional plea regarding violence that sadly seems to never acknowledge female people's need to be similarly considered. There is significant disconnect with this tactic and we have seen it quite often on threads. Those making it never seem to be able to give a logical or coherent answer.

There seemed a few 'how are you going to police it' and 'you are all obsessed with genitals' that never quite work out for the posters. Because the reality is society used to rather successfully 'police' toilet usage until society was told that they could no longer ask a male person to leave the female toilet or get security to come to do it. Or was told that leaving the toilets was considered hateful and a transphobic micro aggression. No one needed to 'inspect genitals'. They were just asked to leave. Did anyone leverage butch looking women in the argument? That one comes very regularly yet strangely, whenever a masculine looking female is asked if they should be there, they just use their female voice and the questioner is usually satisfied. Some of those masculine presenting women tell us how they thank the women questioning because they recognise that those women are looking out for others.

We had the misrepresentation of the feminist chat: sex and gender board too.

There was the lack of understanding of why there were single sex spaces in the first place and safeguarding too.

I feel like there really is some disconnected thinking on this thread and it wasn't from from people supporting Joanne Rowling.

Have I missed the twists and the turns of arguments about gender identity and how some posters wish it to be prioritised above sex even when sex matters? It really seems that we have had many of the misrepresentations and misinformation posts on this thread and I was just catching up. The dismissal of when sex matters is really concerning to me.

It is like I said about how many women have needs that are not addressed by the trend of gender neutral toilets because the needs of many women spill out into that communal toilet area. That those who declare they are fine with allowing male people into female single sex toilets, because they just want to 'pee' seem to have lived very different lives to many of the women that I know.

I may have missed some though. It looked like a pretty full house to me.

Well done JK Rowling for bringing forth so many opportunities to point out the flaws in arguments and for those previous unexposed to see the tactics used to emotionally manipulate others into prioritising gender over sex even when sex does indeed matter. Thanks Wanda too for the thread.

Helleofabore · 20/03/2024 18:35

Did we also have the ‘you are all going to die out and only the wonderfully tolerant people will be left’ trope? That ignores the majority of people in the UK have polled that no, they don’t want male people with penises in female single sex spaces. Or playing in female sports categories.

I suggest that with the evidence about girls in school toilets that is showing that they reject those ‘gender neutral’ options and the growing feedback that they don’t want male people in their female single sex spaces either will tell a remarkably different story than some people want to be true. That actually, girls are not happy with losing their single sex spaces either.

Brefugee · 20/03/2024 18:37

Your questions, demanding a yes or no answer, are akin to me asking you "Have you stopped beating your child? Yes or no."

oh no @mivona that is rubbish. It is a simple yes/no answer: would a muslim woman who didn't want/refused to remove her headscarf in the presence of a biological male be a bigot? Yes she's a bigot, or no she shouldn't have to compromise her religion.

NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 19:15

Helleofabore · 20/03/2024 18:35

Did we also have the ‘you are all going to die out and only the wonderfully tolerant people will be left’ trope? That ignores the majority of people in the UK have polled that no, they don’t want male people with penises in female single sex spaces. Or playing in female sports categories.

I suggest that with the evidence about girls in school toilets that is showing that they reject those ‘gender neutral’ options and the growing feedback that they don’t want male people in their female single sex spaces either will tell a remarkably different story than some people want to be true. That actually, girls are not happy with losing their single sex spaces either.

I don't think we've had that one, but we've had several grandmothers who are pleased to get nekkid with strange men, long for a world where granddaughters are also pleased to get nekkid with strange men and question women who don't.

GailBlancheViola · 20/03/2024 19:31

Isn't it odd how those who batter on about being kind are the least kind and those who batter on about tolerance are the most intolerant.

Be kind to this purportedly oppressed minority but no kindness for any women or girls including those women of certain faiths, those women who have suffered trauma at the hands of males. Oh no, no kindness for them at all.

Be tolerant to anyone holding and espousing the GI view but totally intolerant and more often than not very abusive and threatening to anyone who holds the opposing view.

This purportedly oppressed minority of which Eddie/Suzie Izzard, a very rich, white male is part of when in 'girl' mode.

LlynTegid · 20/03/2024 19:49

A very long thread that can be summarised in one sentence (apologies for misquoting a man, Brian Clough).

We talked for about fifteen minutes and agreed that JK Rowling was right.

NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 19:52

Isn't it odd how those who batter on about being kind are the least kind and those who batter on about tolerance are the most intolerant.

I find it interesting that those who keep returning purely to foot stamp about how they'll never do what we want are the ones trying to force all women to do what they want. By removing all options to do anything else.

NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 20:15

As a slight aside, has anyone checked X? Seems someone libelled JKR (again, yawn) but this time the twerp dragged her daughter and some completely unrelated person and her own child into it, and it looks as though she might actually take legal action this time.

Bankruptus totalis!

Emotionalsupportviper · 20/03/2024 20:34

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2024 09:58

I'd like Mivona's utopia too. Who wouldn't?

I'd like a flying car, and monorails.

I would like monkey butlers.

And cake.

Brefugee · 20/03/2024 20:35

NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 20:15

As a slight aside, has anyone checked X? Seems someone libelled JKR (again, yawn) but this time the twerp dragged her daughter and some completely unrelated person and her own child into it, and it looks as though she might actually take legal action this time.

Bankruptus totalis!

Edited

i watched that unfold today - absolutely fucking stunning in it's awfulness.
She suggested her lawyer and they came out with a nowhere-near-apology.
I hope she sues the pants off them. That account exists only to harass her (and for that reason i have reported the account to twitter)

Helleofabore · 20/03/2024 20:39

mivona · 18/03/2024 15:49

Why does biological sex even matter, unless you are wanting to reproduce or requiring reproductive healthcare?

My feminism was/is to free everyone from being constrained by their perceived sex and presumptions being made about what they can and cannot do as a consequence.

Coming back to this post.

Feminists fought against oppression. That oppression largely took the form of negative sexist discrimination. ie. society treating female people negatively due to their sexed body. I have seen many posters try to argue that feminists fought for 'equality'. When the reality is that feminists fought for 'equality of outcomes'.

The difference becomes clear when you look at previous lifting limits.

Way back in the past, female people would have been not considered for a role that involved lifting heavy items. That was negative sexist discrimination.

It was deemed that female people could not do the job because they were not strong enough, therefore no female person should be employed in that role.

Then feminists pointed out that female people can do the job with accommodations. That being lifting smaller weights more often. Or using a device for assistance. Because of their sexed body, they simply do not have the ability to lift the same weights that male people can, or they can, but not as often without injury. That is the reality of their sexed body. By the way, the evidence is that males who suppress their testosterone still have advantages for that lifting that female people do not have.

So, now there are very few jobs requiring manual lifting that female people cannot apply and should have equal chance of being employed for.

But this was not achieved by denying the unique needs of the female sexed body. It was achieved by forcing through accommodations for that body.

Another example is reproductive capacity. I lost many opportunities because of my ability to get pregnant. It is very clear now though that this is negative sexist discrimination because it should never be assumed that any female person will get pregnant. That is because it is a woman's choice to get pregnant, or to continue a pregnancy that might disrupt employment. This example though is here to highlight the growth of 'women's choices'. Because it was assumed through stereotyping that someone with a female body would choose to get pregnant.

That was always a false basis to reject someone for employment because it could not be applied universally. It was a stereotype. However, it is true that the ONLY people in the world to get pregnant are female. Thankfully society has moved on and female should be less discriminated against because they can get pregnant in the UK.

Still, no denial of the sexed body by feminists. Rather, feminists were very conscious of the needs of female people because of that sexed body.

Then there was the ridiculous notion that women could not do a role because they lacked intellect, or ability or whatever. That did require a great deal of work to overcome. And yes, that is where 'there is NO difference between men and women' came into being. Because there is no real difference between IQ or arriving at the same outcome of a task.

However, here women were not denying they were female. They were saying they were as good as any male and that they should not be denied the opportunities that male people had based on a ridiculous notion that was false.

If your “feminism was/is to free everyone from being constrained by their perceived sex and presumptions being made about what they can and cannot do as a consequence”, you were partly right.

However, it was not done for the male person, feminists were directly fighting female oppression by the patriarchical elements in society.

And “Why does biological sex even matter, unless you are wanting to reproduce or requiring reproductive healthcare?” ignores feminist objectives. Feminists were fighting negative stereotypes and discrimination arising from having a female sexed body, but they were not dismissing the importance of the female sexed body at all. Their efforts were centred around the fact that female people had a body that required specific protections and considerations.

Perhaps you have either misunderstood what feminists were doing or you have misunderstood how equity vs equality is necessary in some instances. And some of those instances are directly due to female people having particular needs unique to their sexed body. This is just part of the reason, 'Why does biological sex even matter, unless you are wanting to reproduce or requiring reproductive healthcare' is not a thoughtful or even particularly well thought out statement. It shows a great deal more about the person asking the question than those who are being questioned, in my opinion.

GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight · 20/03/2024 20:57

I find it interesting that those who keep returning purely to foot stamp

Seeing as we're doing "revealing tactics" I'll add this one to the list too - anyone with a dissenting opinion is accused of foot stamping, tantrumming, or being angry /aggressive even if they've done nothing of the sort.
Paints a negative narrative.

Ofcourseshecan · 20/03/2024 21:02

I do not believe that the way forward is to scapegoat or exclude all those with a penis as a violent threat.

All men have to be excluded because some are a threat. They are not being scapegoated. Decent men don’t want to trespass in women’s spaces. Women have nothing that isn’t available to men in their own male facilities.

NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 21:09

GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight · 20/03/2024 20:57

I find it interesting that those who keep returning purely to foot stamp

Seeing as we're doing "revealing tactics" I'll add this one to the list too - anyone with a dissenting opinion is accused of foot stamping, tantrumming, or being angry /aggressive even if they've done nothing of the sort.
Paints a negative narrative.

When one's "dissenting opinion" is the opinion that women should not object to getting naked with strange men, one should be extremely grateful if foot stamping, tantrumming and anger are all one is accused of.

That poster even asked people what word ought to be used to describe them with that dissenting opinion and the answers were all deleted because it's not possible to answer the question honestly without speaking an unflattering truth.

Cleaningismycardio · 20/03/2024 21:25

Measured, considered and well-reasoned. In stark contrast to the hysterical and vitriol-filled postings of her haters - many of whom I doubt will have even read a paragraph of this essay. Thank you J.K Rowling.

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