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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?

1000 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/03/2024 09:19

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

10 JUNE 2020
J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues

Warning: The below content is not appropriate for children. Please check with an adult before you read this page. To go back to the children’s page, please click heree_.

This isn’t an easy piece to write, for reasons that will shortly become clear, but I know it’s time to explain myself on an issue surrounded by toxicity. I write this without any desire to add to that toxicity.

For people who don’t know: last December I tweeted my support for Maya Forstater, a tax specialist who’d lost her job for what were deemed ‘transphobic’ tweets. She took her case to an employment tribunal, asking the judge to rule on whether a philosophical belief that sex is determined by biology is protected in law. Judge Tayler ruled that it wasn’t.

My interest in trans issues pre-dated Maya’s case by almost two years, during which I followed the debate around the concept of gender identity closely. I’ve met trans people, and read sundry books, blogs and articles by trans people, gender specialists, intersex people, psychologists, safeguarding experts, social workers and doctors, and followed the discourse online and in traditional media. On one level, my interest in this issue has been professional, because I’m writing a crime series, set in the present day, and my fictional female detective is of an age to be interested in, and affected by, these issues herself, but on another, it’s intensely personal, as I’m about to explain.

All the time I’ve been researching and learning, accusations and threats from trans activists have been bubbling in my Twitter timeline. This was initially triggered by a ‘like’. When I started taking an interest in gender identity and transgender matters, I began screenshotting comments that interested me, as a way of reminding myself what I might want to research later. On one occasion, I absent-mindedly ‘liked’ instead of screenshotting. That single ‘like’ was deemed evidence of wrongthink, and a persistent low level of harassment began.

Months later, I compounded my accidental ‘like’ crime by following Magdalen Berns on Twitter. Magdalen was an immensely brave young feminist and lesbian who was dying of an aggressive brain tumour. I followed her because I wanted to contact her directly, which I succeeded in doing. However, as Magdalen was a great believer in the importance of biological sex, and didn’t believe lesbians should be called bigots for not dating trans women with penises, dots were joined in the heads of twitter trans activists, and the level of social media abuse increased.

I mention all this only to explain that I knew perfectly well what was going to happen when I supported Maya. I must have been on my fourth or fifth cancellation by then. I expected the threats of violence, to be told I was literally killing trans people with my hate, to be called cunt and bitch and, of course, for my books to be burned, although one particularly abusive man told me he’d composted them.

What I didn’t expect in the aftermath of my cancellation was the avalanche of emails and letters that came showering down upon me, the overwhelming majority of which were positive, grateful and supportive. They came from a cross-section of kind, empathetic and intelligent people, some of them working in fields dealing with gender dysphoria and trans people, who’re all deeply concerned about the way a socio-political concept is influencing politics, medical practice and safeguarding.

They’re worried about the dangers to young people, gay people and about the erosion of women’s and girl’s rights. Above all, they’re worried about a climate of fear that serves nobody – least of all trans youth – well.

I’d stepped back from Twitter for many months both before and after tweeting support for Maya, because I knew it was doing nothing good for my mental health. I only returned because I wanted to share a free children’s book during the pandemic. Immediately, activists who clearly believe themselves to be good, kind and progressive people swarmed back into my timeline, assuming a right to police my speech, accuse me of hatred, call me misogynistic slurs and, above all – as every woman involved in this debate will know – TERF.

If you didn’t already know – and why should you? – ‘TERF’ is an acronym coined by trans activists, which stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. In practice, a huge and diverse cross-section of women are currently being called TERFs and the vast majority have never been radical feminists. Examples of so-called TERFs range from the mother of a gay child who was afraid their child wanted to transition to escape homophobic bullying, to a hitherto totally unfeminist older lady who’s vowed never to visit Marks & Spencer again because they’re allowing any man who says they identify as a woman into the women’s changing rooms. Ironically, radical feminists aren’t even trans-exclusionary – they include trans men in their feminism, because they were born women.

But accusations of TERFery have been sufficient to intimidate many people, institutions and organisations I once admired, who’re cowering before the tactics of the playground. ‘They’ll call us transphobic!’ ‘They’ll say I hate trans people!’ What next, they’ll say you’ve got fleas? Speaking as a biological woman, a lot of people in positions of power really need to grow a pair (which is doubtless literally possible, according to the kind of people who argue that clownfish prove humans aren’t a dimorphic species).

So why am I doing this? Why speak up? Why not quietly do my research and keep my head down?

Well, I’ve got five reasons for being worried about the new trans activism, and deciding I need to speak up.

Firstly, I have a charitable trust that focuses on alleviating social deprivation in Scotland, with a particular emphasis on women and children. Among other things, my trust supports projects for female prisoners and for survivors of domestic and sexual abuse. I also fund medical research into MS, a disease that behaves very differently in men and women. It’s been clear to me for a while that the new trans activism is having (or is likely to have, if all its demands are met) a significant impact on many of the causes I support, because it’s pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender.

The second reason is that I’m an ex-teacher and the founder of a children’s charity, which gives me an interest in both education and safeguarding. Like many others, I have deep concerns about the effect the trans rights movement is having on both.

The third is that, as a much-banned author, I’m interested in freedom of speech and have publicly defended it, even unto Donald Trump.

The fourth is where things start to get truly personal. I’m concerned about the huge explosion in young women wishing to transition and also about the increasing numbers who seem to be detransitioning (returning to their original sex), because they regret taking steps that have, in some cases, altered their bodies irrevocably, and taken away their fertility. Some say they decided to transition after realising they were same-sex attracted, and that transitioning was partly driven by homophobia, either in society or in their families.

Most people probably aren’t aware – I certainly wasn’t, until I started researching this issue properly – that ten years ago, the majority of people wanting to transition to the opposite sex were male. That ratio has now reversed. The UK has experienced a 4400% increase in girls being referred for transitioning treatment. Autistic girls are hugely overrepresented in their numbers.
The same phenomenon has been seen in the US. In 2018, American physician and researcher Lisa Littman set out to explore it. In an interview, she said:
‘Parents online were describing a very unusual pattern of transgender-identification where multiple friends and even entire friend groups became transgender-identified at the same time. I would have been remiss had I not considered social contagion and peer influences as potential factors.’
Littman mentioned Tumblr, Reddit, Instagram and YouTube as contributing factors to Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, where she believes that in the realm of transgender identification ‘youth have created particularly insular echo chambers.’
Her paper caused a furore. She was accused of bias and of spreading misinformation about transgender people, subjected to a tsunami of abuse and a concerted campaign to discredit both her and her work. The journal took the paper offline and re-reviewed it before republishing it. However, her career took a similar hit to that suffered by Maya Forstater. Lisa Littman had dared challenge one of the central tenets of trans activism, which is that a person’s gender identity is innate, like sexual orientation. Nobody, the activists insisted, could ever be persuaded into being trans.

The argument of many current trans activists is that if you don’t let a gender dysphoric teenager transition, they will kill themselves. In an article explaining why he resigned from the Tavistock (an NHS gender clinic in England) psychiatrist Marcus Evans stated that claims that children will kill themselves if not permitted to transition do not ‘align substantially with any robust data or studies in this area. Nor do they align with the cases I have encountered over decades as a psychotherapist.’

The writings of young trans men reveal a group of notably sensitive and clever people. The more of their accounts of gender dysphoria I’ve read, with their insightful descriptions of anxiety, dissociation, eating disorders, self-harm and self-hatred, the more I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition. The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge. I struggled with severe OCD as a teenager. If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.

When I read about the theory of gender identity, I remember how mentally sexless I felt in youth. I remember Colette’s description of herself as a ‘mental hermaphrodite’ and Simone de Beauvoir’s words: ‘It is perfectly natural for the future woman to feel indignant at the limitations posed upon her by her sex. The real question is not why she should reject them: the problem is rather to understand why she accepts them.’
As I didn’t have a realistic possibility of becoming a man back in the 1980s, it had to be books and music that got me through both my mental health issues and the sexualised scrutiny and judgement that sets so many girls to war against their bodies in their teens. Fortunately for me, I found my own sense of otherness, and my ambivalence about being a woman, reflected in the work of female writers and musicians who reassured me that, in spite of everything a sexist world tries to throw at the female-bodied, it’s fine not to feel pink, frilly and compliant inside your own head; it’s OK to feel confused, dark, both sexual and non-sexual, unsure of what or who you are.

I want to be very clear here: I know transition will be a solution for some gender dysphoric people, although I’m also aware through extensive research that studies have consistently shown that between 60-90% of gender dysphoric teens will grow out of their dysphoria. Again and again I’ve been told to ‘just meet some trans people.’ I have: in addition to a few younger people, who were all adorable, I happen to know a self-described transsexual woman who’s older than I am and wonderful. Although she’s open about her past as a gay man, I’ve always found it hard to think of her as anything other than a woman, and I believe (and certainly hope) she’s completely happy to have transitioned. Being older, though, she went through a long and rigorous process of evaluation, psychotherapy and staged transformation. The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this.
We’re living through the most misogynistic period I’ve experienced. Back in the 80s, I imagined that my future daughters, should I have any, would have it far better than I ever did, but between the backlash against feminism and a porn-saturated online culture, I believe things have got significantly worse for girls. Never have I seen women denigrated and dehumanised to the extent they are now. From the leader of the free world’s long history of sexual assault accusations and his proud boast of ‘grabbing them by the pussy’, to the incel (‘involuntarily celibate’) movement that rages against women who won’t give them sex, to the trans activists who declare that TERFs need punching and re-educating, men across the political spectrum seem to agree: women are asking for trouble. Everywhere, women are being told to shut up and sit down, or else.

I’ve read all the arguments about femaleness not residing in the sexed body, and the assertions that biological women don’t have common experiences, and I find them, too, deeply misogynistic and regressive. It’s also clear that one of the objectives of denying the importance of sex is to erode what some seem to see as the cruelly segregationist idea of women having their own biological realities or – just as threatening – unifying realities that make them a cohesive political class. The hundreds of emails I’ve received in the last few days prove this erosion concerns many others just as much. It isn’t enough for women to be trans allies. Women must accept and admit that there is no material difference between trans women and themselves.

But, as many women have said before me, ‘woman’ is not a costume. ‘Woman’ is not an idea in a man’s head. ‘Woman’ is not a pink brain, a liking for Jimmy Choos or any of the other sexist ideas now somehow touted as progressive. Moreover, the ‘inclusive’ language that calls female people ‘menstruators’ and ‘people with vulvas’ strikes many women as dehumanising and demeaning. I understand why trans activists consider this language to be appropriate and kind, but for those of us who’ve had degrading slurs spat at us by violent men, it’s not neutral, it’s hostile and alienating.

Which brings me to the fifth reason I’m deeply concerned about the consequences of the current trans activism.

I’ve been in the public eye now for over twenty years and have never talked publicly about being a domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor. This isn’t because I’m ashamed those things happened to me, but because they’re traumatic to revisit and remember. I also feel protective of my daughter from my first marriage. I didn’t want to claim sole ownership of a story that belongs to her, too. However, a short while ago, I asked her how she’d feel if I were publicly honest about that part of my life, and she encouraged me to go ahead.

I’m mentioning these things now not in an attempt to garner sympathy, but out of solidarity with the huge numbers of women who have histories like mine, who’ve been slurred as bigots for having concerns around single-sex spaces.
I managed to escape my first violent marriage with some difficulty, but I’m now married to a truly good and principled man, safe and secure in ways I never in a million years expected to be. However, the scars left by violence and sexual assault don’t disappear, no matter how loved you are, and no matter how much money you’ve made. My perennial jumpiness is a family joke – and even I know it’s funny – but I pray my daughters never have the same reasons I do for hating sudden loud noises, or finding people behind me when I haven’t heard them approaching.

If you could come inside my head and understand what I feel when I read about a trans woman dying at the hands of a violent man, you’d find solidarity and kinship. I have a visceral sense of the terror in which those trans women will have spent their last seconds on earth, because I too have known moments of blind fear when I realised that the only thing keeping me alive was the shaky self-restraint of my attacker.

I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.

So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth.

On Saturday morning, I read that the Scottish government is proceeding with its controversial gender recognition plans, which will in effect mean that all a man needs to ‘become a woman’ is to say he’s one. To use a very contemporary word, I was ‘triggered’. Ground down by the relentless attacks from trans activists on social media, when I was only there to give children feedback about pictures they’d drawn for my book under lockdown, I spent much of Saturday in a very dark place inside my head, as memories of a serious sexual assault I suffered in my twenties recurred on a loop. That assault happened at a time and in a space where I was vulnerable, and a man capitalised on an opportunity. I couldn’t shut out those memories and I was finding it hard to contain my anger and disappointment about the way I believe my government is playing fast and loose with womens and girls’ safety.

Late on Saturday evening, scrolling through children’s pictures before I went to bed, I forgot the first rule of Twitter – never, ever expect a nuanced conversation – and reacted to what I felt was degrading language about women. I spoke up about the importance of sex and have been paying the price ever since. I was transphobic, I was a cunt, a bitch, a TERF, I deserved cancelling, punching and death. You are Voldemort said one person, clearly feeling this was the only language I’d understand.

It would be so much easier to tweet the approved hashtags – because of course trans rights are human rights and of course trans lives matter – scoop up the woke cookies and bask in a virtue-signalling afterglow. There’s joy, relief and safety in conformity. As Simone de Beauvoir also wrote, “… without a doubt it is more comfortable to endure blind bondage than to work for one’s liberation; the dead, too, are better suited to the earth than the living.”
Huge numbers of women are justifiably terrified by the trans activists; I know this because so many have got in touch with me to tell their stories. They’re afraid of doxxing, of losing their jobs or their livelihoods, and of violence.

But endlessly unpleasant as its constant targeting of me has been, I refuse to bow down to a movement that I believe is doing demonstrable harm in seeking to erode ‘woman’ as a political and biological class and offering cover to predators like few before it. I stand alongside the brave women and men, gay, straight and trans, who’re standing up for freedom of speech and thought, and for the rights and safety of some of the most vulnerable in our society: young gay kids, fragile teenagers, and women who’re reliant on and wish to retain their single sex spaces. Polls show those women are in the vast majority, and exclude only those privileged or lucky enough never to have come up against male violence or sexual assault, and who’ve never troubled to educate themselves on how prevalent it is.

The one thing that gives me hope is that the women who can protest and organise, are doing so, and they have some truly decent men and trans people alongside them. Political parties seeking to appease the loudest voices in this debate are ignoring women’s concerns at their peril. In the UK, women are reaching out to each other across party lines, concerned about the erosion of their hard-won rights and widespread intimidation. None of the gender critical women I’ve talked to hates trans people; on the contrary. Many of them became interested in this issue in the first place out of concern for trans youth, and they’re hugely sympathetic towards trans adults who simply want to live their lives, but who’re facing a backlash for a brand of activism they don’t endorse. The supreme irony is that the attempt to silence women with the word ‘TERF’ may have pushed more young women towards radical feminism than the movement’s seen in decades.
The last thing I want to say is this. I haven’t written this essay in the hope that anybody will get out a violin for me, not even a teeny-weeny one. I’m extraordinarily fortunate; I’m a survivor, certainly not a victim. I’ve only mentioned my past because, like every other human being on this planet, I have a complex backstory, which shapes my fears, my interests and my opinions. I never forget that inner complexity when I’m creating a fictional character and I certainly never forget it when it comes to trans people.

All I’m asking – all I want – is for similar empathy, similar understanding, to be extended to the many millions of women whose sole crime is wanting their concerns to be heard without receiving threats and abuse.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
56
2023NEWMUM2023 · 20/03/2024 12:56

I agree with JKR. The world has gone mad. Sadly makes me feel fortunate we've had a baby boy not a girl

ArabellaScott · 20/03/2024 12:56

beachcitygirl · Today 09:10

YABU

Why don't you slither back to the misguided genitalia obsessed mob that have monopolised the "feminist" boards even though they are anything but.

Bigotry and ignorance doesn't wash with the majority of women -thank god.

55 year old woman. Mother & Grandmother who is sick to the back teeth of this whipped up panicked nonsense designed to hurt a minority group.

Yes, this is a very illuminating and useful post. Thanks, beachcitygirl. It really helps to show the thinking of those arguing against women's rights and single sex spaces.

Lion400 · 20/03/2024 12:57

@Ereshkigalangcleg Agreed. The fact it has been ‘allowed’ to stay in AIBU is super. More people have seen / will still see it, where they wouldn’t have seen it before, had it been shunted off to the usual place women’s and children’s rights get shunted off too.

Lion400 · 20/03/2024 13:00

Hopefully it will make more people think about whether voting for a party who won’t be seen to uphold women’s and children’s rights, is worth it. Because although we’re making some progress, it could all fall to pieces again in no time.

To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?
Helleofabore · 20/03/2024 13:29

Boiledbeetle · 20/03/2024 00:11

In general when posters won't answer the perfectly polite versions of what do you mean can you explain posts but continue to return to post more word salad waffle then I can understand why some posters just get to the are you ever going to answer this thing that x number of posters have queried with you.

It's not harassment to be questioned on something that many posters have queried what you are on about or what you meant.

If a poster wants to say something and doesn't want to answer any questions related to what they've said that's their prerogative. They have every right to do that. And other posters have every right to ask them a question about what they said and then ask them if they are ever planning on responding if all they get back is responses that still doesn't answer the question.

And if a poster still doesn't want to answer a simple straight forward question after being given the opportunity many times then a lot of posters are perfectly at liberty to assume some posters on here are talking out of their arse.

I think that it is important to highlight the questions and the tactics used by posters who seek to scold others for disagreeing with them.

This statement is very true.

"And if a poster still doesn't want to answer a simple straight forward question after being given the opportunity many times then a lot of posters are perfectly at liberty to assume some posters on here are talking out of their arse."

People can and do draw their own conclusions once they see that a poster seems more motivated by scolding and shaming others using emotionally manipulative tactics than actively discussing the issues brought up on the thread. If a poster cannot answer questions, yet will use those tactics, it becomes clear that that is all they have - emotional manipulation. It is very likely that it is what convinced them, and they are then repeating that hoping to convince others.

If a point cannot be robustly defended using evidence and in the absence of direct evidence, logic, then the point was always weak. Some people don't like to realise that they lack the critical thinking ability or even just the curiosity to seek further understanding once they have been emotionally manipulated into believing unevidenced claims.

Brefugee · 20/03/2024 13:49

off the back of this thread i finally listened to the Witch Trials of JK Rowling.

I thought it was a pretty even handed production. What really stands out though, and i am aware of a certain amount of personal bias, is that anyone who is on JKR's "side" is more than happy and/or willing to debate and talk. And anyone who is on the other "side" to what JKR says/believes is not willing at all. There is "no debate". It is worrying for lots of reasons, not least their firm belief that within a relatively short amount of time, all us old GCs will be dead and they won't have anyone who might "argue against" them (scare quotes because they are so firmly No Debate.

The other thing is that if this is how the younger generations think, and how students think: how will humanity ever invent or discover anything ever again? Because they don't seem able to be challenged on anything, there is no ability to "show their working" so there can be no teasing out or development of ideas. Are we seeing the end of serious research?

But oh bloody norah. The tone they speak in on their little TikToks or YouTube shorts or Instragram reels: They are so sure they are right, there is only One True Belief. The way you imagine them saying, in their heads, "period!" (meaning end of sentence) after their utterances. Urgh.

RainbowZebraWarrior · 20/03/2024 13:52

"Another great thing about this post is that this is a woman who seems to be completely out of touch with the fact that currently girls in schools are dehydrating themselves and bleeding through their clothes because they have no option outside of 'gender neutral' toilets"

This.

My 12 yo Autistic daughter is doing all this. She is giving herself fucking migraines with the levels of dehydration. It's an utter shit show.

GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight · 20/03/2024 13:58

I also think it's important to highlight tactics of certain posters, glad we agree on something.
They'll say "I'm all ears" when they've no intention of actually listening to what others are saying.
Then when people give up (as you soon know what posters are worth bothering with /genuine) you get accused of running off to bake a cake or do your knitting Confused 🙄😂
They'll try and discredit a person's view, whether that's by insisting they must be a man, or that they're a "TRA", or make disgusting insinuations about your character.
If too many people disagree with groupthink on a thread at once, it hastily turns into a farce as they try to get it filled up with cake references, or telling you how much they like Weetabix.
Etc etc

Chersfrozenface · 20/03/2024 14:01

The other thing is that if this is how the younger generations think, and how students think: how will humanity ever invent or discover anything ever again? Because they don't seem able to be challenged on anything, there is no ability to "show their working" so there can be no teasing out or development of ideas. Are we seeing the end of serious research?

Quite possibly.

Or any research and development will be undertaken only on subjects palatable to ideologues, and even then by R&D staff with closed minds, so ineffectively.

Or it will be undertaken in territories not in thrall to ideology or religion, though I'm struggling to think of any at the moment.

Civilisations do decline and fall.

Lion400 · 20/03/2024 14:01

RainbowZebraWarrior · 20/03/2024 13:52

"Another great thing about this post is that this is a woman who seems to be completely out of touch with the fact that currently girls in schools are dehydrating themselves and bleeding through their clothes because they have no option outside of 'gender neutral' toilets"

This.

My 12 yo Autistic daughter is doing all this. She is giving herself fucking migraines with the levels of dehydration. It's an utter shit show.

🤬That’s horrific, it’s dangerous. My children go to single sex schools so we are not experiencing this.

I would write directly to Sunak and to Starmer with this issue; with your direct evidence, and ask what they are going to do about it.

Obviously Starmer on the basis he wants to be our next PM, Sunak on the basis he is our PM.

I wonder if they have mixed toilets in the HoCs.

NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 14:12

GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight · 20/03/2024 13:58

I also think it's important to highlight tactics of certain posters, glad we agree on something.
They'll say "I'm all ears" when they've no intention of actually listening to what others are saying.
Then when people give up (as you soon know what posters are worth bothering with /genuine) you get accused of running off to bake a cake or do your knitting Confused 🙄😂
They'll try and discredit a person's view, whether that's by insisting they must be a man, or that they're a "TRA", or make disgusting insinuations about your character.
If too many people disagree with groupthink on a thread at once, it hastily turns into a farce as they try to get it filled up with cake references, or telling you how much they like Weetabix.
Etc etc

Then when people give up (as you soon know what posters are worth bothering with /genuine) you get accused of running off to bake a cake or do your knitting

Well there's "giving up" after you've actually answered the pertinent question which requires only a yes or no, and then there's "giving up" after returning multiple times after the question has been asked, ready to talk about yourself and give some irrelevant waffle, but never giving an answer.

And we all know why, and it's not because the questioners are Bad People. It's because there comes a point where yes, to stand by what you're saying, you do have to state that you consider a Muslim woman a bigot for not abandoning her faith on the spot, or a vulnerable teenage girl, or a rape survivor, and so on. You do indeed have to say that they have no right to a single sex space and should submit and look happy about it. That an additional unisex space isn't acceptable because what's wanted here isn't a safe place to pee (and as PPs said, women use toilets for far more than that). It's complete capitulation and validation from all people, no matter how good their reasons for not wanting men in their spaces. Nobody must be allowed a space that doesn't validate a male person as a female one.

And that is absolutely indefensible. Which is why nobody defends it. They just, well, blame the askers. But we all know what's going on.

Do you think a Muslim woman requiring a single sex space to undress is a bigot?

Brefugee · 20/03/2024 14:24

As for girls dehydrating: my DDs are in their mid-late-20s now. And they dehydrated themselves at school because the boys would burst in and try to photograph over or under the door, kick the doors (kick them in sometimes where locks were weak-ened) etc etc.

The school eventually made the decision not to keep repairing them -but the little sods never wrecked their own. but when a boys toilet was changed to a girls toilet - they wrecked that. Because, bottom line, in the end they would just pee in the playground behind a tree.

Helleofabore · 20/03/2024 14:32

"They'll say "I'm all ears" when they've no intention of actually listening to what others are saying."

Do they have no intention of actually listening, or is the poster they are saying 'I am all ears' to incapable of getting a coherent and consistent post together and posters just lose patience?

"Then when people give up (as you soon know what posters are worth bothering with /genuine) you get accused of running off to bake a cake or do your knitting"

Are you going to try to tell us all that posters who have arrived on a thread and used derogatory tactics, demonising others and posting misinformation and misrepresentation have never just disappeared with the message 'I would discuss x, but I have to go and do y'? And are you going to tell us that 'baking a cake' has not been used at least 2 or 3 times to avoid answering questions from posters who offered nothing but shaming posts in a thread. I can think of at least 2 times this has happened specifically. And the posters never returned to give any evidence to support their claims. That is why that comment appears, because it has been done before and posters remember it.

You have been on enough threads where the pattern of behaviour repeats with different excuses or just a good old MN flounce to even bother trying to deny that it happens.

"They'll try and discredit a person's view, whether that's by insisting they must be a man, or that they're a "TRA", or make disgusting insinuations about your character."

Sometimes posters will ask if a poster is a man because of the misogynistic direction the post, or they might make that accusation because they cannot believe that a woman would hold that belief. Again, this has happened in the past where a poster who ended up being male tried to portray themselves as a woman while posting absolute misogynistic trope. I believe you have seen that happen too. So, yes, of course women are suspicious of new posters who post this way.

A 'TRA'? Why would that impede a person's ability to evidence something they claim? Or are you using the term 'TRA' when what you really mean is a person with an extreme belief that people with gender identities should be prioritised above those who need sex based protections where Sex Matters? How does this 'discredit' their view if their view can be evidenced with direct and relevant evidence?

Or are you now trying to say that everyone should just have their view accepted because they say something is true despite not being able to evidence it? Why? Why should being labeled as a man or a TRA discredit someone if they are providing a view supported by the evidence they post?

Do you think that feminists would feel 'discredited' being labelled 'feminists'? Or do you think that feminists would just provide evidence and continue to try to engage with positive intent?

And insinuations about people's character is a MN speciality. I have had all sorts of insinuations about my character made on threads on AIBU for all sorts of issues. Dogs, parking, safeguarding, you name it. Sure, it is not pleasant. But if you are after a different MN experience, you are bound to be disappointed.

So, tell us again, why should anyone who posts on a thread and makes derogatory and shaming statements, negative generalisations and posts misinformation and misrepresentations not be challenged? For instance, should a poster accusing Joanne Rowling of vile acts towards a male person who has a long history of abusing her because she correctly pointed out her abuser's sex category not be challenged? When that poster never bothered to actually go and read that abuser's tweet history to understand the issue properly before posting to shame Joanne Rowling?

GailBlancheViola · 20/03/2024 15:01

GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight · 20/03/2024 13:58

I also think it's important to highlight tactics of certain posters, glad we agree on something.
They'll say "I'm all ears" when they've no intention of actually listening to what others are saying.
Then when people give up (as you soon know what posters are worth bothering with /genuine) you get accused of running off to bake a cake or do your knitting Confused 🙄😂
They'll try and discredit a person's view, whether that's by insisting they must be a man, or that they're a "TRA", or make disgusting insinuations about your character.
If too many people disagree with groupthink on a thread at once, it hastily turns into a farce as they try to get it filled up with cake references, or telling you how much they like Weetabix.
Etc etc

Someone who has the courage of their convictions and truly believes in their stance should be able to defend it with logic, reason and evidence, people trying to 'discredit' their view would not deter them if they had the wherewithal to defend their position. Instead what we get as a first port of call for posters who believe in Gender Ideology and think woman and girls should just roll over and accept everything the gender ideologues demand is name calling, slurs and emotional hyperbole. No evidence, no reason, no logic.

Evidence supplied by posters who disagree with GI is ignored, hand waved away with the stance that it matters not that women and girls are harmed, it matters not what women and girls want or need.

JKR has managed to defend her position with clarity, reason, evidence and logic in the face of the most extreme threats of violence and sexual violence, been called a barrage of vile names, received enough threats and abuse that if she printed them all off she'd have enough to paper her entire house and here you are whinging that a poster on here cannot defend their view against reasonable questions and in the face of evidence that contradicts their assertions.

Helleofabore · 20/03/2024 15:29

GailBlancheViola · 20/03/2024 15:01

Someone who has the courage of their convictions and truly believes in their stance should be able to defend it with logic, reason and evidence, people trying to 'discredit' their view would not deter them if they had the wherewithal to defend their position. Instead what we get as a first port of call for posters who believe in Gender Ideology and think woman and girls should just roll over and accept everything the gender ideologues demand is name calling, slurs and emotional hyperbole. No evidence, no reason, no logic.

Evidence supplied by posters who disagree with GI is ignored, hand waved away with the stance that it matters not that women and girls are harmed, it matters not what women and girls want or need.

JKR has managed to defend her position with clarity, reason, evidence and logic in the face of the most extreme threats of violence and sexual violence, been called a barrage of vile names, received enough threats and abuse that if she printed them all off she'd have enough to paper her entire house and here you are whinging that a poster on here cannot defend their view against reasonable questions and in the face of evidence that contradicts their assertions.

Absolutely Gail.

If a person cannot defend their opinion and feels that people should just accept their opinion and then feels offended that people don't just affirm that opinion, I think that says a great deal about that person if they then cannot or as we have also seen, will not, provide evidence to support that opinion. It is almost like some posters feel that just because they have been convinced of something that is based purely on emotional manipulation and philosophical belief, that others should be too.

I guess that it must hurt some people terribly to have their posts questioned when they do feel they should be above challenge. Particularly when some posters may join a thread just to cheerlead someone who complains of being challenged without really understanding the interaction at all. Sometimes it shows some posters just want to use the opportunity to make negative blanket generalisations based on their own prejudiced thinking.

GailBlancheViola · 20/03/2024 15:42

I guess that it must hurt some people terribly to have their posts questioned when they do feel they should be above challenge.

Without a doubt @Helleofabore . It is the I'm righteous, how dare you question or challenge me? attitude that shines like a beacon from these posters.

Particularly when some posters may join a thread just to cheerlead someone who complains of being challenged without really understanding the interaction at all. Sometimes it shows some posters just want to use the opportunity to make negative blanket generalisations based on their own prejudiced thinking.

Very true, they never let an opportunity to do so pass them by.

NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 15:42

My moral tutor said that the reason a poster refused to answer two simple questions, despite returning several times to waffle, was because they "didn't have to".

Of course nobody can force them and it's not a condition of posting on the Internet that you have to justify your statements. Still, I would argue that when you are trying to shame and coerce women into undressing in front of men when they don't want to, or else exclude themselves completely, lest they be regarded as morally lacking - that actually, yes, you do have an ethical obligation, albeit an unenforceable one, to answer a simple but pertinent question about it.

NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 15:53

Ah, the deletions we were expecting have occurred. Good good, that means the posts got seen. I was wondering what was taking so long.

Helleofabore · 20/03/2024 15:58

NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 15:42

My moral tutor said that the reason a poster refused to answer two simple questions, despite returning several times to waffle, was because they "didn't have to".

Of course nobody can force them and it's not a condition of posting on the Internet that you have to justify your statements. Still, I would argue that when you are trying to shame and coerce women into undressing in front of men when they don't want to, or else exclude themselves completely, lest they be regarded as morally lacking - that actually, yes, you do have an ethical obligation, albeit an unenforceable one, to answer a simple but pertinent question about it.

yes. Not one of us has a right to post on a public forum without being challenged. Just like not one of us has to produce evidence to support anything we say. We all have the right to post where ever we want and express our opinions.

However, if asked to defend that opinion and a poster can't or won't, then it really is up to readers to make their own judgements as to why. It is a public forum and anyone can also then point out that lack of evidence and pose an opinion on just what that means.

What is also fully within the rights of all posters is to point out misinformation and misrepresentations and the harms that those might cause others. Again, no poster posting on a public forum has the right to not have their opinion challenged. No matter how much that might upset them.

mivona · 20/03/2024 16:20

@NonPlayerCharacter Your questions, demanding a yes or no answer, are akin to me asking you "Have you stopped beating your child? Yes or no."

I have explained my position repeatedly, and you simply wish to mischaracterise my response and denigrate me as a "real" grandmother. I am not required to respond to your rudeness, and I will not ally myself to your position.

I believe that there are other solutions to blanket binary policies. I do not believe that the way forward is to scapegoat or exclude all those with a penis as a violent threat. I do not believe that everyone must be required to undress in one large room, or to have showers in banks of showerheads.

NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 16:20

mivona · 20/03/2024 16:20

@NonPlayerCharacter Your questions, demanding a yes or no answer, are akin to me asking you "Have you stopped beating your child? Yes or no."

I have explained my position repeatedly, and you simply wish to mischaracterise my response and denigrate me as a "real" grandmother. I am not required to respond to your rudeness, and I will not ally myself to your position.

I believe that there are other solutions to blanket binary policies. I do not believe that the way forward is to scapegoat or exclude all those with a penis as a violent threat. I do not believe that everyone must be required to undress in one large room, or to have showers in banks of showerheads.

Is a Muslim woman a bigot for refusing to remove her hijab in the presence of a male person?

NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 16:21

(Told you the posts were seen!)

Boiledbeetle · 20/03/2024 16:33

I feel I must address the cake issue over on the FWR board

It's not just because of TRA posters, or multiple TRA posters at one time on a thread

It happens for various reasons sometimes because the actual subject of the thread is having a lull until more news comes in, sometimes because we've exhausted all there is to be said on the subject of the thread and it's like hanging back in the pub after last orders to talk shit whilst your mate finishes up their shift. (And sometimes just because we are bored!)

Sometimes though when a thread over on the FWR board gets visited by a TRA (usually singular, sometimes accompanied by a fellow TRA) who wants to discuss something that isn't the subject of the thread but rather what they think is a stick to beat us with we will eventually, rather than telling a poster to just fuck off (as we'd get deleted for that) and unable to carry on with the theme of the thread without constant whataboutery comments then, yes, we resort to cake, cheese and alternative uses for breakfast cereal.

Now there is nothing to stop the TRA poster from joining in food related talk, usually though they throw a strop and flounce at that point as they aren't getting the requisite amount of attention.

It's not about getting a thread filled up (unless there's only a few posts left and we are all sick to death of it and want it closed so that it doesn't appear as a zombie thread 24 months later) it's about the fact that usually one lone individual has thrown us so far off course in order to get us not to talk about the thread topic that talking about food is the only sane option. It's food or bang our heads against walls! Both make the mad voices go away, but one option is infinitely more enjoyable than the other.

To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?
Crankywiddershins · 20/03/2024 16:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

A 55 year old woman who still refers to herself as a "girl"? 🙄

Helleofabore · 20/03/2024 16:39

"I do not believe that the way forward is to scapegoat or exclude all those with a penis as a violent threat."

And yet, this assessment of risk of male violence against female people (including sex crimes) forms the premise for excluding ALL male people over about the age of 8 from female single sex spaces. Whether you like this solution or not, it is considered the safest and fairest way to protect female people from harm.

Sex segregation is how society has dealt with this risk. Again, whether you like the solution or not, this is what we have and this is what we need to deal with.

Until such times as evidence exists that male people at any stage of transition in the UK have the same risk of committing sex crime as female people or lower than female people, no special groups of male people should be exempted from risk assessment for the purpose of safeguarding. Do you have such evidence?

Please note that I have not asked you whether some male people at any stage of transition have a higher risk than all other UK male people. Because, we can avoid all those defensive accusations of 'not all male people with transgender identities are like that' by going straight to the heart of the matter.

"I do not believe that everyone must be required to undress in one large room, or to have showers in banks of showerheads."

Again, this is irrelevant to the current situation. Because we HAVE communal changing rooms in the UK. That is not going away any time soon, if ever. So, rather than remonstrating against the reality, let's address the issue at hand.

We have single sex spaces set up for female people to use for not only their protection, but their privacy and their dignity. We also have female people who have needs falling under the protected characteristic of religious belief.

Should any male person over the age of 8 years old be allowed to access any female single sex spaces?

If so, why?

Based on what evidence? And please produce that evidence so that we can all see it.

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