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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?

1000 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/03/2024 09:19

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

10 JUNE 2020
J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues

Warning: The below content is not appropriate for children. Please check with an adult before you read this page. To go back to the children’s page, please click heree_.

This isn’t an easy piece to write, for reasons that will shortly become clear, but I know it’s time to explain myself on an issue surrounded by toxicity. I write this without any desire to add to that toxicity.

For people who don’t know: last December I tweeted my support for Maya Forstater, a tax specialist who’d lost her job for what were deemed ‘transphobic’ tweets. She took her case to an employment tribunal, asking the judge to rule on whether a philosophical belief that sex is determined by biology is protected in law. Judge Tayler ruled that it wasn’t.

My interest in trans issues pre-dated Maya’s case by almost two years, during which I followed the debate around the concept of gender identity closely. I’ve met trans people, and read sundry books, blogs and articles by trans people, gender specialists, intersex people, psychologists, safeguarding experts, social workers and doctors, and followed the discourse online and in traditional media. On one level, my interest in this issue has been professional, because I’m writing a crime series, set in the present day, and my fictional female detective is of an age to be interested in, and affected by, these issues herself, but on another, it’s intensely personal, as I’m about to explain.

All the time I’ve been researching and learning, accusations and threats from trans activists have been bubbling in my Twitter timeline. This was initially triggered by a ‘like’. When I started taking an interest in gender identity and transgender matters, I began screenshotting comments that interested me, as a way of reminding myself what I might want to research later. On one occasion, I absent-mindedly ‘liked’ instead of screenshotting. That single ‘like’ was deemed evidence of wrongthink, and a persistent low level of harassment began.

Months later, I compounded my accidental ‘like’ crime by following Magdalen Berns on Twitter. Magdalen was an immensely brave young feminist and lesbian who was dying of an aggressive brain tumour. I followed her because I wanted to contact her directly, which I succeeded in doing. However, as Magdalen was a great believer in the importance of biological sex, and didn’t believe lesbians should be called bigots for not dating trans women with penises, dots were joined in the heads of twitter trans activists, and the level of social media abuse increased.

I mention all this only to explain that I knew perfectly well what was going to happen when I supported Maya. I must have been on my fourth or fifth cancellation by then. I expected the threats of violence, to be told I was literally killing trans people with my hate, to be called cunt and bitch and, of course, for my books to be burned, although one particularly abusive man told me he’d composted them.

What I didn’t expect in the aftermath of my cancellation was the avalanche of emails and letters that came showering down upon me, the overwhelming majority of which were positive, grateful and supportive. They came from a cross-section of kind, empathetic and intelligent people, some of them working in fields dealing with gender dysphoria and trans people, who’re all deeply concerned about the way a socio-political concept is influencing politics, medical practice and safeguarding.

They’re worried about the dangers to young people, gay people and about the erosion of women’s and girl’s rights. Above all, they’re worried about a climate of fear that serves nobody – least of all trans youth – well.

I’d stepped back from Twitter for many months both before and after tweeting support for Maya, because I knew it was doing nothing good for my mental health. I only returned because I wanted to share a free children’s book during the pandemic. Immediately, activists who clearly believe themselves to be good, kind and progressive people swarmed back into my timeline, assuming a right to police my speech, accuse me of hatred, call me misogynistic slurs and, above all – as every woman involved in this debate will know – TERF.

If you didn’t already know – and why should you? – ‘TERF’ is an acronym coined by trans activists, which stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. In practice, a huge and diverse cross-section of women are currently being called TERFs and the vast majority have never been radical feminists. Examples of so-called TERFs range from the mother of a gay child who was afraid their child wanted to transition to escape homophobic bullying, to a hitherto totally unfeminist older lady who’s vowed never to visit Marks & Spencer again because they’re allowing any man who says they identify as a woman into the women’s changing rooms. Ironically, radical feminists aren’t even trans-exclusionary – they include trans men in their feminism, because they were born women.

But accusations of TERFery have been sufficient to intimidate many people, institutions and organisations I once admired, who’re cowering before the tactics of the playground. ‘They’ll call us transphobic!’ ‘They’ll say I hate trans people!’ What next, they’ll say you’ve got fleas? Speaking as a biological woman, a lot of people in positions of power really need to grow a pair (which is doubtless literally possible, according to the kind of people who argue that clownfish prove humans aren’t a dimorphic species).

So why am I doing this? Why speak up? Why not quietly do my research and keep my head down?

Well, I’ve got five reasons for being worried about the new trans activism, and deciding I need to speak up.

Firstly, I have a charitable trust that focuses on alleviating social deprivation in Scotland, with a particular emphasis on women and children. Among other things, my trust supports projects for female prisoners and for survivors of domestic and sexual abuse. I also fund medical research into MS, a disease that behaves very differently in men and women. It’s been clear to me for a while that the new trans activism is having (or is likely to have, if all its demands are met) a significant impact on many of the causes I support, because it’s pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender.

The second reason is that I’m an ex-teacher and the founder of a children’s charity, which gives me an interest in both education and safeguarding. Like many others, I have deep concerns about the effect the trans rights movement is having on both.

The third is that, as a much-banned author, I’m interested in freedom of speech and have publicly defended it, even unto Donald Trump.

The fourth is where things start to get truly personal. I’m concerned about the huge explosion in young women wishing to transition and also about the increasing numbers who seem to be detransitioning (returning to their original sex), because they regret taking steps that have, in some cases, altered their bodies irrevocably, and taken away their fertility. Some say they decided to transition after realising they were same-sex attracted, and that transitioning was partly driven by homophobia, either in society or in their families.

Most people probably aren’t aware – I certainly wasn’t, until I started researching this issue properly – that ten years ago, the majority of people wanting to transition to the opposite sex were male. That ratio has now reversed. The UK has experienced a 4400% increase in girls being referred for transitioning treatment. Autistic girls are hugely overrepresented in their numbers.
The same phenomenon has been seen in the US. In 2018, American physician and researcher Lisa Littman set out to explore it. In an interview, she said:
‘Parents online were describing a very unusual pattern of transgender-identification where multiple friends and even entire friend groups became transgender-identified at the same time. I would have been remiss had I not considered social contagion and peer influences as potential factors.’
Littman mentioned Tumblr, Reddit, Instagram and YouTube as contributing factors to Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, where she believes that in the realm of transgender identification ‘youth have created particularly insular echo chambers.’
Her paper caused a furore. She was accused of bias and of spreading misinformation about transgender people, subjected to a tsunami of abuse and a concerted campaign to discredit both her and her work. The journal took the paper offline and re-reviewed it before republishing it. However, her career took a similar hit to that suffered by Maya Forstater. Lisa Littman had dared challenge one of the central tenets of trans activism, which is that a person’s gender identity is innate, like sexual orientation. Nobody, the activists insisted, could ever be persuaded into being trans.

The argument of many current trans activists is that if you don’t let a gender dysphoric teenager transition, they will kill themselves. In an article explaining why he resigned from the Tavistock (an NHS gender clinic in England) psychiatrist Marcus Evans stated that claims that children will kill themselves if not permitted to transition do not ‘align substantially with any robust data or studies in this area. Nor do they align with the cases I have encountered over decades as a psychotherapist.’

The writings of young trans men reveal a group of notably sensitive and clever people. The more of their accounts of gender dysphoria I’ve read, with their insightful descriptions of anxiety, dissociation, eating disorders, self-harm and self-hatred, the more I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition. The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge. I struggled with severe OCD as a teenager. If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.

When I read about the theory of gender identity, I remember how mentally sexless I felt in youth. I remember Colette’s description of herself as a ‘mental hermaphrodite’ and Simone de Beauvoir’s words: ‘It is perfectly natural for the future woman to feel indignant at the limitations posed upon her by her sex. The real question is not why she should reject them: the problem is rather to understand why she accepts them.’
As I didn’t have a realistic possibility of becoming a man back in the 1980s, it had to be books and music that got me through both my mental health issues and the sexualised scrutiny and judgement that sets so many girls to war against their bodies in their teens. Fortunately for me, I found my own sense of otherness, and my ambivalence about being a woman, reflected in the work of female writers and musicians who reassured me that, in spite of everything a sexist world tries to throw at the female-bodied, it’s fine not to feel pink, frilly and compliant inside your own head; it’s OK to feel confused, dark, both sexual and non-sexual, unsure of what or who you are.

I want to be very clear here: I know transition will be a solution for some gender dysphoric people, although I’m also aware through extensive research that studies have consistently shown that between 60-90% of gender dysphoric teens will grow out of their dysphoria. Again and again I’ve been told to ‘just meet some trans people.’ I have: in addition to a few younger people, who were all adorable, I happen to know a self-described transsexual woman who’s older than I am and wonderful. Although she’s open about her past as a gay man, I’ve always found it hard to think of her as anything other than a woman, and I believe (and certainly hope) she’s completely happy to have transitioned. Being older, though, she went through a long and rigorous process of evaluation, psychotherapy and staged transformation. The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this.
We’re living through the most misogynistic period I’ve experienced. Back in the 80s, I imagined that my future daughters, should I have any, would have it far better than I ever did, but between the backlash against feminism and a porn-saturated online culture, I believe things have got significantly worse for girls. Never have I seen women denigrated and dehumanised to the extent they are now. From the leader of the free world’s long history of sexual assault accusations and his proud boast of ‘grabbing them by the pussy’, to the incel (‘involuntarily celibate’) movement that rages against women who won’t give them sex, to the trans activists who declare that TERFs need punching and re-educating, men across the political spectrum seem to agree: women are asking for trouble. Everywhere, women are being told to shut up and sit down, or else.

I’ve read all the arguments about femaleness not residing in the sexed body, and the assertions that biological women don’t have common experiences, and I find them, too, deeply misogynistic and regressive. It’s also clear that one of the objectives of denying the importance of sex is to erode what some seem to see as the cruelly segregationist idea of women having their own biological realities or – just as threatening – unifying realities that make them a cohesive political class. The hundreds of emails I’ve received in the last few days prove this erosion concerns many others just as much. It isn’t enough for women to be trans allies. Women must accept and admit that there is no material difference between trans women and themselves.

But, as many women have said before me, ‘woman’ is not a costume. ‘Woman’ is not an idea in a man’s head. ‘Woman’ is not a pink brain, a liking for Jimmy Choos or any of the other sexist ideas now somehow touted as progressive. Moreover, the ‘inclusive’ language that calls female people ‘menstruators’ and ‘people with vulvas’ strikes many women as dehumanising and demeaning. I understand why trans activists consider this language to be appropriate and kind, but for those of us who’ve had degrading slurs spat at us by violent men, it’s not neutral, it’s hostile and alienating.

Which brings me to the fifth reason I’m deeply concerned about the consequences of the current trans activism.

I’ve been in the public eye now for over twenty years and have never talked publicly about being a domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor. This isn’t because I’m ashamed those things happened to me, but because they’re traumatic to revisit and remember. I also feel protective of my daughter from my first marriage. I didn’t want to claim sole ownership of a story that belongs to her, too. However, a short while ago, I asked her how she’d feel if I were publicly honest about that part of my life, and she encouraged me to go ahead.

I’m mentioning these things now not in an attempt to garner sympathy, but out of solidarity with the huge numbers of women who have histories like mine, who’ve been slurred as bigots for having concerns around single-sex spaces.
I managed to escape my first violent marriage with some difficulty, but I’m now married to a truly good and principled man, safe and secure in ways I never in a million years expected to be. However, the scars left by violence and sexual assault don’t disappear, no matter how loved you are, and no matter how much money you’ve made. My perennial jumpiness is a family joke – and even I know it’s funny – but I pray my daughters never have the same reasons I do for hating sudden loud noises, or finding people behind me when I haven’t heard them approaching.

If you could come inside my head and understand what I feel when I read about a trans woman dying at the hands of a violent man, you’d find solidarity and kinship. I have a visceral sense of the terror in which those trans women will have spent their last seconds on earth, because I too have known moments of blind fear when I realised that the only thing keeping me alive was the shaky self-restraint of my attacker.

I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.

So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth.

On Saturday morning, I read that the Scottish government is proceeding with its controversial gender recognition plans, which will in effect mean that all a man needs to ‘become a woman’ is to say he’s one. To use a very contemporary word, I was ‘triggered’. Ground down by the relentless attacks from trans activists on social media, when I was only there to give children feedback about pictures they’d drawn for my book under lockdown, I spent much of Saturday in a very dark place inside my head, as memories of a serious sexual assault I suffered in my twenties recurred on a loop. That assault happened at a time and in a space where I was vulnerable, and a man capitalised on an opportunity. I couldn’t shut out those memories and I was finding it hard to contain my anger and disappointment about the way I believe my government is playing fast and loose with womens and girls’ safety.

Late on Saturday evening, scrolling through children’s pictures before I went to bed, I forgot the first rule of Twitter – never, ever expect a nuanced conversation – and reacted to what I felt was degrading language about women. I spoke up about the importance of sex and have been paying the price ever since. I was transphobic, I was a cunt, a bitch, a TERF, I deserved cancelling, punching and death. You are Voldemort said one person, clearly feeling this was the only language I’d understand.

It would be so much easier to tweet the approved hashtags – because of course trans rights are human rights and of course trans lives matter – scoop up the woke cookies and bask in a virtue-signalling afterglow. There’s joy, relief and safety in conformity. As Simone de Beauvoir also wrote, “… without a doubt it is more comfortable to endure blind bondage than to work for one’s liberation; the dead, too, are better suited to the earth than the living.”
Huge numbers of women are justifiably terrified by the trans activists; I know this because so many have got in touch with me to tell their stories. They’re afraid of doxxing, of losing their jobs or their livelihoods, and of violence.

But endlessly unpleasant as its constant targeting of me has been, I refuse to bow down to a movement that I believe is doing demonstrable harm in seeking to erode ‘woman’ as a political and biological class and offering cover to predators like few before it. I stand alongside the brave women and men, gay, straight and trans, who’re standing up for freedom of speech and thought, and for the rights and safety of some of the most vulnerable in our society: young gay kids, fragile teenagers, and women who’re reliant on and wish to retain their single sex spaces. Polls show those women are in the vast majority, and exclude only those privileged or lucky enough never to have come up against male violence or sexual assault, and who’ve never troubled to educate themselves on how prevalent it is.

The one thing that gives me hope is that the women who can protest and organise, are doing so, and they have some truly decent men and trans people alongside them. Political parties seeking to appease the loudest voices in this debate are ignoring women’s concerns at their peril. In the UK, women are reaching out to each other across party lines, concerned about the erosion of their hard-won rights and widespread intimidation. None of the gender critical women I’ve talked to hates trans people; on the contrary. Many of them became interested in this issue in the first place out of concern for trans youth, and they’re hugely sympathetic towards trans adults who simply want to live their lives, but who’re facing a backlash for a brand of activism they don’t endorse. The supreme irony is that the attempt to silence women with the word ‘TERF’ may have pushed more young women towards radical feminism than the movement’s seen in decades.
The last thing I want to say is this. I haven’t written this essay in the hope that anybody will get out a violin for me, not even a teeny-weeny one. I’m extraordinarily fortunate; I’m a survivor, certainly not a victim. I’ve only mentioned my past because, like every other human being on this planet, I have a complex backstory, which shapes my fears, my interests and my opinions. I never forget that inner complexity when I’m creating a fictional character and I certainly never forget it when it comes to trans people.

All I’m asking – all I want – is for similar empathy, similar understanding, to be extended to the many millions of women whose sole crime is wanting their concerns to be heard without receiving threats and abuse.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
56
NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 21:25

As it is, that dissenting opinion - offensive and ignorant as it is - is not the reason the poster was accused of foot stamping. The foot stamping came about from several follow up posts in which the poster dodged the same question @GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight is also ignoring, but took time to complain about how horrible everyone is, how wonderful the poster is and how the poster absolutely WON'T do as everyone says, while trying to manipulate all of womankind to do what the poster wants.

It's pretty much the definition of foot stamping. The attempts to invalidate women's rights to undress away from men are the definition of something else and if you truly can't work out what, feel free to PM me.

GailBlancheViola · 20/03/2024 21:43

NonPlayerCharacter · 20/03/2024 19:52

Isn't it odd how those who batter on about being kind are the least kind and those who batter on about tolerance are the most intolerant.

I find it interesting that those who keep returning purely to foot stamp about how they'll never do what we want are the ones trying to force all women to do what they want. By removing all options to do anything else.

Edited

Yep, not authoritarian, coercive, dictatorial at all.

lifeturnsonadime · 20/03/2024 21:52

RainbowZebraWarrior · 20/03/2024 13:52

"Another great thing about this post is that this is a woman who seems to be completely out of touch with the fact that currently girls in schools are dehydrating themselves and bleeding through their clothes because they have no option outside of 'gender neutral' toilets"

This.

My 12 yo Autistic daughter is doing all this. She is giving herself fucking migraines with the levels of dehydration. It's an utter shit show.

@RainbowZebraWarrior your poor daughter.

My daughter is also autistic and would be the same were she able to be in school.

The needs of girls are being completely ignored.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2024 23:13

As a slight aside, has anyone checked X? Seems someone libelled JKR (again, yawn) but this time the twerp dragged her daughter and some completely unrelated person and her own child into it, and it looks as though she might actually take legal action this time.

There's also Police Scotland giving some idiotic hate crime training session written by transactivists making up a thinly disguised straw gender critical feminist based on JKR and other prominent women called "Jo" who wants to send trans people to "gas chambers".

Morwenscapacioussleeves · 20/03/2024 23:34

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2024 23:13

As a slight aside, has anyone checked X? Seems someone libelled JKR (again, yawn) but this time the twerp dragged her daughter and some completely unrelated person and her own child into it, and it looks as though she might actually take legal action this time.

There's also Police Scotland giving some idiotic hate crime training session written by transactivists making up a thinly disguised straw gender critical feminist based on JKR and other prominent women called "Jo" who wants to send trans people to "gas chambers".

I happen to have it still open- https://archive.is/7nJ74

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/03/2024 00:10

Thanks @Morwenscapacioussleeves

The shit that she has to put up with.

Helleofabore · 21/03/2024 03:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2024 23:13

As a slight aside, has anyone checked X? Seems someone libelled JKR (again, yawn) but this time the twerp dragged her daughter and some completely unrelated person and her own child into it, and it looks as though she might actually take legal action this time.

There's also Police Scotland giving some idiotic hate crime training session written by transactivists making up a thinly disguised straw gender critical feminist based on JKR and other prominent women called "Jo" who wants to send trans people to "gas chambers".

And no one thought this was going too far? Fuck that is grim.

I wonder did they then show an extremist holding a sign ‘decapitate terfs’ and posting rape threats on social media and ask whether that was a hate crime? I wonder if they could have added such a character yelling to a crowd of mostly male activists to ‘punch terfs in the face’.

Oh yeah, those things happened already. Not a made up over exaggerated incident.

Imagine thinking that someone stating that there are only two sexes in human beings is committing a hate crime?

Boiledbeetle · 21/03/2024 05:38

Helleofabore · 21/03/2024 03:52

And no one thought this was going too far? Fuck that is grim.

I wonder did they then show an extremist holding a sign ‘decapitate terfs’ and posting rape threats on social media and ask whether that was a hate crime? I wonder if they could have added such a character yelling to a crowd of mostly male activists to ‘punch terfs in the face’.

Oh yeah, those things happened already. Not a made up over exaggerated incident.

Imagine thinking that someone stating that there are only two sexes in human beings is committing a hate crime?

I still struggle with the fact that supposedly intelligent women thought this was OK!

To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?
Helleofabore · 21/03/2024 07:47

Here is another reason why sex matters.

https://archive.ph/XEKnU

A group supposedly responsible for addressing the lack of female CEOs in the world’s largest, most profitable organisations are including males in the program. Considering we have already seen a supposedly ‘sex’ balanced board in UK recently end up as 6 males and 4 females, people wonder why female people find these initiatives a waste of resources.

The group allowing this to happen are wrongfully wedging in a group who have different needs due to their unique discrimination experience. That group however, have also benefitted in part, and maybe for the majority of their careers, from the culture that has discriminated against those with a female sexed body.

Therefore, this group of male people will now benefit again through direct discrimination against female people. Because it is another case of negative sexist discrimation against female people to allow male people to gain from this initiative and to take a female person’s place. Plus allowing a male who has not been subject to negative sex based discrimination since birth to participate and benefit continues to hide the degree of negative sex discrimination still experienced by female people. It will show a false improvement.

This is another example of ‘why biological sex matters’. I cannot imagine a feminist declaring that if this initiative resulted in 15 more ‘women’ CEOs by the end of 2025 it would be a success even if those women were male. Of course, female trans people should be included in this initiative and encouraged to participate. They have experienced that negative sex based discrimination and need the support to overcome the discriminatory culture still there.

If there was a transgender lobby group announcing an initiative for getting more trans people into CEO roles, that would be very different and may be needed in the future.

nothingcomestonothing · 21/03/2024 07:48

The person running that Twitter account should not be out in society. Seriously. The unhinged DARVO of doxxing an innocent woman and child to try to get at JKR and then going 'see, your hatred and bigotry made me do it and now when people complain that I did it that's your fault for being so hateful as well'. What that woman has to put up with is incredible.

To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?
To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?
To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?
Emotionalsupportviper · 21/03/2024 08:29

HeartofSaturdayNight · 19/03/2024 15:02

BTW, I don't find pointing out safeguarding issues absurd at all. I find it completely necessary in the climate of stupidity we find ourselves in.

Edited for sweariness. 😂

Edited

I am surprised that more posts do not have to be edited for weariness TBH.

I have had to remove entire long, ranting sweaty posts and just leave a box with "edited" write-in it because I have been so FECKING IRATE!!!!!!!

I can only assume that most of us compose ourselves with deep meditative techniques before we put fingertip to keyboard.

ScarlettSunset · 21/03/2024 08:34

Helleofabore · 21/03/2024 03:52

And no one thought this was going too far? Fuck that is grim.

I wonder did they then show an extremist holding a sign ‘decapitate terfs’ and posting rape threats on social media and ask whether that was a hate crime? I wonder if they could have added such a character yelling to a crowd of mostly male activists to ‘punch terfs in the face’.

Oh yeah, those things happened already. Not a made up over exaggerated incident.

Imagine thinking that someone stating that there are only two sexes in human beings is committing a hate crime?

This is truly terrifying.
Extremist is the right word. How can people who are calling for others to die or be murdered because they don't agree with their beliefs, accuse those who don't agree with them of being the ones who commit hate crimes?

Everyone should have the right to believe in the scientific facts they can see with their own eyes.

Emotionalsupportviper · 21/03/2024 08:37

Morwenscapacioussleeves · 20/03/2024 23:34

I happen to have it still open- https://archive.is/7nJ74

Edited

Jesus wept!

I don't know how any of them can even look at themselves in a mirror, knowing what shite they are spouting. Do they have to practice saying all this with a straight face, d'ye think?

NonPlayerCharacter · 21/03/2024 08:39

Emotionalsupportviper · 21/03/2024 08:37

Jesus wept!

I don't know how any of them can even look at themselves in a mirror, knowing what shite they are spouting. Do they have to practice saying all this with a straight face, d'ye think?

When you've got people berating women for not wanting to undress alongside men, and tacitly admitting that they think religious women refusing to accept males as females by undressing before them are acting out bigotry, you probably feel quite empowered, tbh.

HeartofSaturdayNight · 21/03/2024 08:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Emotionalsupportviper · 21/03/2024 08:52

I daren't roll my eyes! @HeartofSaturdayNight

Once I started they would probably spin right out of the sockets and end up under the settee or something. There's tons of cat hair under there - I'd never get it all off.

Helleofabore · 21/03/2024 10:20

mivona · 18/03/2024 16:39

What exactly is "the reality of biological sex"?

Are we reducing women to only their reproductive ability?

https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/more-women-than-expected-are-genetically-men/

There is equal diversity in hormones.

Our time would be better spent in addressing violence and actual oppression of individuals for what ever spurious rationale.

Next time you post mivona, would you please explain what you mean here.

What do you mean by 'diversity in hormones' ? Or are you again attempting leverage people with medical conditions that fall into the category of Differences in Sex Development now to destabilise the sex categorisation of humans?

This article you posted is actually very clear. Those people mentioned are still 'male' people. They have a very rare medical condition that is hard enough for them to have to come to terms with, without you and others politicising their conditions. Is the 'diversity' in hormones you refer to their testosterone levels? Which are male testosterone levels which their bodies cannot use, but those testosterone levels are still male and still produced by their bodies? What is your point?

For the record, healthy female people do not produce anywhere near the levels of testosterone that male people produce. If a female person is producing high levels of testosterone it is a sign that there is potentially something harmful happening in the body, such as a tumour. And by 'high' I mean when the levels are higher than what might be found in the highest reading of a female with PCOS.

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Here is a study looking at testosterone levels in female people.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6391653/#:~:text=Following%20puberty%2C%20testosterone%20production%20increases,vs%201%20nmol%2FL).

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.

You then seemed to think it was a great 'gotcha' to simply post the link to Claire Ainsworth's article. You didn't engage with it at all. Are you not able to discuss these articles in depth that you are relying on to prove your point? If not, why post them?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

Perhaps you misunderstood Claire. Here in this substack post from a developmental biologist, containing a screen shot of her clarification because she has since made her twitter private. Probably because she has been asked for clarification so much from people who didn't understand her article. On 21st July, 2017 she tweeted : "No, not at all. Two sexes, with a continuum of variation in anatomy/physiology."

https://substack.com/@colinwright/note/c-14559851

I suspect that she is horrified by the way her article is being misused and used as misinformation. Can I suggest that if you want to have an engaged conversation where people don't misinterpret your posts, you actually engage and not just post something without some depth of comment about why it is important to the thread?

Being able to correctly discuss female health issues is another reason why 'Sex Matters'. Because you have posted that article to support 'male levels of testosterone' in women. If any female has the levels that seem to be find in those patients discussed, they would need some immediate and thorough diagnosis. Language matters.

Helleofabore · 21/03/2024 10:30

This chart might be helpful to show just how uncomplicated testosterone presence in a human body is. If I remember correctly, male people with AIS produce male levels of testosterone, their body lacks the ability to use it in that quantity.

It is also important to note that even though the body does not use testosterone, being male and having male genes has shown that this group of Differences of Sex Development still retain some of the advantages that male bodies have over female bodies. Males with AIS are over represented in female sport than they are in the population.

Politicising their bodies by posting articles that somehow disprove the binary nature of sex (which is false) is spreading misinformation and it is politicising this group when it is of no benefit to that group at all. It is actually rather harmful to them. Kind and tolerant ? I don't think so.

To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?
borntobequiet · 21/03/2024 10:52

There is equal diversity in hormones.

Wins the prize for Most Vacuous Statement of the Day.

NonPlayerCharacter · 21/03/2024 11:07

borntobequiet · 21/03/2024 10:52

There is equal diversity in hormones.

Wins the prize for Most Vacuous Statement of the Day.

I don't know.. "What exactly is the reality of biological sex?" is quite a clanger itself. Especially coming from someone who claims to have reproduced. And who claims their children have also reproduced.

And who expressed offence when a poster suggested they might be a grandfather as opposed to a grandmother. If the reality of biological sex is beyond mivona's comprehension, why was mivona offended by that suggestion? How was mivona even able to conceptualise what was being said?

Helleofabore · 21/03/2024 11:16

borntobequiet · 21/03/2024 10:52

There is equal diversity in hormones.

Wins the prize for Most Vacuous Statement of the Day.

I have found the lack of depth in knowledge that some posters then confidently use to support their arguments to be rather concerning. It looks to me like some posters are overly invested in believing the philosophical belief that underlies gender identity theory. They seem to wish to treat that philosophical belief as material reality when it is impossible.

I love reading all the links posted on threads. I always learn stuff. I want people to keep posting links. I also though want them to explain the relevance of the link and be prepared to discuss their strengths and weaknesses. Of course, while I can want this, there is no obligation.

I suspect though, that some posters just like to state their opinion and not be challenged about that opinion. Then they get frustrated that people don't think their opinion reflects the facts known.

NonPlayerCharacter · 21/03/2024 12:10

They seem to wish to treat that philosophical belief as material reality when it is impossible.

The problem is that they aren't happy to sustain this fantasy only among others who share it. Unisex spaces are fine but only if there are no single sex ones alongside it. Everyone must kowtow.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/03/2024 13:04

I suspect though, that some posters just like to state their opinion and not be challenged about that opinion. Then they get frustrated that people don't think their opinion reflects the facts known.

Yes, exactly.

WallaceinAnderland · 21/03/2024 13:18

Still not answering those two simple yes/no questions.

Haven't caught up with the thread yet. Someone please put me out of my misery, did @mivona ever answer the questions?

Helleofabore · 21/03/2024 13:19

Here is a pretty detailed look as to why biological sex matters anyway, fresh off the press.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581

The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletes

Tommy R. Lundberg, Ross Tucker, Kerry McGawley, Alun G. Williams, Grégoire P. Millet, Øyvind Sandbakk, Glyn Howatson, Gregory A. Brown, Lara A. Carlson, Sarah Chantler, Mark A. Chen, Shane M. Heffernan, Neil Heron, Christopher Kirk, Marie H. Murphy, Noel Pollock, Jamie Pringle, Andrew Richardson, Jordan Santos-Concejero, Georgina K. Stebbings, Ask Vest Christiansen, Stuart M. Phillips, Cathy Devine, Carwyn Jones, Jon Pike, Emma N. Hilton

It contains the graphic that I have attached.

I mean.... it may not be considered an appropriate 'feminist' campaign to have safe and fair sports for female people by someone who declares that there is never a need to consider a person's biological sex outside of reproduction (which is a concept that I have seen repeated by numerous posters and indeed, some academics too). But I think as it centres female people and making sure that they have equitable opportunities, this paper is a good summary for where female sports stands at the moment.

And it crosses international borders and disciplines. Some of the world's best sports and scientific minds. And it has a very long list of references that people can go and search out for the original source information and data to satisfy themselves that they are understanding the paper correctly.

Here is pretty much the summary of the article.

Perspectives:

The IOC framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations is misaligned with current scientific and medical evidence and offers insufficient protection of fair competition for female athletes within a female category. Also, it does not adequately engage female athletes, who are primary stakeholders in their sport. Male pubertal development results in large performance advantages in athletic sports, which necessitates a female category that excludes male advantages, to ensure equal opportunity through fair competition for female athletes at all levels of sport. There is currently no evidence that testosterone suppression in transgender women can reverse male development and negate male advantages. In contrast, there is convincing evidence that the male advantage persists even when testosterone is suppressed. As a result, sports face the uncomfortable reality that the inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories cannot be reconciled with fairness, and in some instances safety, for females in athletic sports. The IOC must reconsider its framework and revise the 10 principles to reflect scientific evidence and fundamental principles of fair competition. We also recommend implementing a system to enable female stakeholders to be consulted in this matter and to have their voices heard, recognized, and valued.

To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?
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