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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Barristers vs Solicitors!

122 replies

HBGKC · 15/03/2024 19:46

Posting here for traffic - I told my son I'd pick the hive-brain of Mumsnet on his behalf.

He's in lower sixth currently, and thinking about possible career paths. He feels more drawn towards being a barrister (reasons: more interesting work, suits his skill-set, possibility to make a concrete difference), but is also thinking about degree apprenticeships to be a solicitor (reasons: getting paid a v decent wage whilst training, possibility to transition to barrister later on if he still thinks that's a better option, can make lots of contacts during his training that would be useful later as a barrister).

There's also the option to do a normal BA of his choice and then the law conversion course afterwards.

The degree apprenticeship would probably be the most difficult to get on to, as they're insanely competitive from what I've heard; though all law-related careers seem to like that!

I'd be very grateful for any tips/advice/words of wisdom/caution from any solicitors and barristers on here, particularly those who've qualified in the last 10-15 years. Thanks in advance Daffodil

OP posts:
FruitFeatures · 16/03/2024 09:19

@DoIhavegreeneyes housing cases are heard in the county court but solicitors can and do act as advocates in these cases if participating in the county court duty scheme.

fluro123 · 16/03/2024 09:25

Haven’t read the whole thread fully so forgive me if this is repeated info. I’m not a lawyer but my sister is - I know a lot of solicitors and barristers and their working lives strike me as quite different.

Barristers are much more high octane. They work intensely and one KC friend of mine described it like ‘revising for an exam every day of your life’. The courtroom work is interesting and it takes a certain type of person to stand up and argue and think on one’s feet. Remember that the really interesting criminal work is poorly paid compared to corporate law - I know criminal barristers on 70k a year, whereas their equivalents in corporate working on, say, big mergers and acquisitions, might be earning in the region of 2 million a year (!!!) at the top of their game.

Barristers are also effectively freelance. Income can be uncertain and I’ve known quite a few even very senior ones have to navigate challenges around tax bills etc. It’s one thing in your late 20s but once you have a family, this can be very stressful.

Solicitors, by contrast, seem to have steadier, calmer lives - but the work, on the face of it at least, might be a little less stimulating! More office based, lots of paperwork etc…obviously there are multiple fields and areas of interest, some more demanding than others.

In terms of training, I think the crazy days of 80 hour weeks for newly qualified lawyers have calmed down since my friends were in that position 20 years ago. Everyone a lot more aware of well-being - but the workload compared to a lot of graduate roles will still be high. I don’t know much about apprenticeships however I think if your DS is set on one of the magic circle firms, a more common route would be coming in with degree from Oxbridge or RG followed by the conversion course. Apprenticeships are quite new and I could imagine there being a degree of snootiness from firms that are still dominated by privately educated/Oxbridge graduates…

hope this is helpful and good luck to your ds.

Freakinfraser · 16/03/2024 09:37

As someone with a child who is qualified and has recent experience of this, mine is a commercial litigation solicitor, they love it, and the work. But it is very gruelling and long at times, and yes the office culture can be toxic. But also conversely very supportive. The pay is very good. It is very very competitive to get either a training contract, although that has opened up, or called to the bar.

some areas of law are very poorly paid. Ie criminal particularly if it’s high street.

the solicitor is effectively the case manager, the barrister is usually hired by the solicitor, they do two very different roles, but work as a team if court action is required. Settlement, mediation, is always the aim prior to any court action.

solicitors can also speak in court, by becoming a solicitor advocate,and can represent clients in high court. This maybe a mid ground he likes.

skippy67 · 16/03/2024 09:56

My DS is 26 and has been a lawyer for 2.5 years. London firm, not magic circle. He loves his job, and doesn't recognise the toxic description uptrend. Yes the hours can be long, but he is very well paid, and had a good work life balance. He has a friend the same age who went the barrister route and is currently on a sabbatical due to work burnout.

Chylka · 16/03/2024 11:29

Not read all the responses @HBGKC but being a barrister is not in any way consistent with work not taking over your evenings and weekends.

kirinm · 16/03/2024 12:29

Who are these solicitors that are never stressed?

I'm a litigation solicitor and I do enjoy it but it can be stressful. Chargeable time is the thing that ruins the job. Units of 6 mins dictate your life.

I instruct very senior junior barristers or KCs with my work and we repeatedly use the same people as do other firms in my area. I think you have to be very very good to get to be the favourite of many firms.

jeaux90 · 16/03/2024 12:41

OP the other thing to consider is that he doesn't actually have to go into a practice or chambers.

There is also very good money in commercial/contract law in big tech firms. Tech firms are usually great places to work if you are ND as it's pretty rammed with ND.

I'd just get all options on the table for him so he doesn't just think about law in one way.

I've been in tech for 30 years, our legals teams in the 7 or so places I have worked are well respected, very well paid with all the benefits of pensions, healthcare and shares. They are also the best negotiators on the deals I have worked on.

A grad role in one of the large tech firms is also a good option.

KERALA1 · 16/03/2024 12:54

It’s interesting though was reading in the paper a statement by the pr woman of a big name company on a hot topic sounded suspiciously like something Dh would say - sure enough…!

TotalDramarama24 · 16/03/2024 14:07

OP there is a fairly new thread in higher education which has some information about the trainee solicitor versus apprenticeship route.

I echo a lot of what PPs are saying but what potential solicitors might not realise is how much time is spent not actually doing any legal work at all.

I work for a magic circle firm and spend a ridiculous amount of time going through excel spreadsheets of WIP, negotiating fees with clients, raising bills, chasing payment of bills, producing fee estimates for pitches, producing actual pitches (with assistance from marketing), submissions to various publications, PMRs for junior staff and writing feedback, training and supervising staff, entering timesheets, opening new matters which involves so much red tape and AML, engagement letters, meeting clients and trying to win new work as you have to always be selling the firm, attending training sessions, endless admin. Yesterday I did a 12 hour day where the only legal work was a 3 hour turn of a share purchase agreement. Also you have to work a minimum of 1600 chargeable hours to get a decent bonus.

It is incredibly misogynistic too.

AhBiscuits · 16/03/2024 14:17

TotalDramarama24 · 16/03/2024 14:07

OP there is a fairly new thread in higher education which has some information about the trainee solicitor versus apprenticeship route.

I echo a lot of what PPs are saying but what potential solicitors might not realise is how much time is spent not actually doing any legal work at all.

I work for a magic circle firm and spend a ridiculous amount of time going through excel spreadsheets of WIP, negotiating fees with clients, raising bills, chasing payment of bills, producing fee estimates for pitches, producing actual pitches (with assistance from marketing), submissions to various publications, PMRs for junior staff and writing feedback, training and supervising staff, entering timesheets, opening new matters which involves so much red tape and AML, engagement letters, meeting clients and trying to win new work as you have to always be selling the firm, attending training sessions, endless admin. Yesterday I did a 12 hour day where the only legal work was a 3 hour turn of a share purchase agreement. Also you have to work a minimum of 1600 chargeable hours to get a decent bonus.

It is incredibly misogynistic too.

IKR.

Barristers vs Solicitors!
HBGKC · 16/03/2024 17:45

Chylka · 16/03/2024 11:29

Not read all the responses @HBGKC but being a barrister is not in any way consistent with work not taking over your evenings and weekends.

Thank you for the clarity! Much appreciated.

OP posts:
HBGKC · 16/03/2024 17:48

"Barristers are also effectively freelance. Income can be uncertain and I’ve known quite a few even very senior ones have to navigate challenges around tax bills etc. It’s one thing in your late 20s but once you have a family, this can be very stressful.

Solicitors, by contrast, seem to have steadier, calmer lives - but the work, on the face of it at least, might be a little less stimulating!"

@fluro123 this is one of the practical elements I'm trying to warn him against; as the spouse of someone self-employed I know all about how stressful that can be!

OP posts:
PinotPony · 16/03/2024 18:57

Another consideration is working hours. As a medical negligence solicitor at a regional firm, i usually work standard office hours with the occasional late night. This fits around my family and I try to maintain a decent work-life balance.

Barristers often get sent papers at all times of day and night. When you factor in travel to far flung courts, their hours are a lot more varied.

Also, barristers don't get the opportunity to build a relationship with their client in the way a solicitor would. They fly in, do the advocacy, and fly off to the next case. The solicitor is the one that does the bulk of the hand-holding and client care.

I agree with PP that your son should focus on undergraduate studies for now, with as much work experience as possible. He'll figure out what his preferences are as he learns.

Valeriekat · 16/03/2024 20:28

I don't know any lazy people in Law!

KERALA1 · 16/03/2024 20:35

I knew one. Lovely chap. Dozed every lunchtime. He figured he could stay in a job for 2 years before the firm noticed 😀. He was very handsome and a lovely guy to have around which helped. He had family money and left law eventually. This was 2004 do not sure he would get away with now!

HBGKC · 17/03/2024 10:02

Thank you @TotalDramarama24, I'm watching the thread you mentioned 👍

OP posts:
Willyoujustbequiet · 17/03/2024 10:07

Chicci1 · 15/03/2024 20:26

Totally endorse this. I think law is the most toxic profession there is in terms of stress, pressure and poor work life balance. Hell would freeze over before I’d let my children choose law.

I have to agree I'm afraid. It's really not what those outside the profession think it is.

kirinm · 17/03/2024 10:12

www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/pinsent-masons-tragedy-prompts-debate-among-overworked-lawyers

I don't know many lawyers who haven't spent time crying in the toilets or feeling too anxious to look at a case for fear they've missed something because they're so overworked.

But it obviously isn't like that all the time and I assume the level of stress exists in other industries.

Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain · 17/03/2024 10:12

Willyoujustbequiet · 17/03/2024 10:07

I have to agree I'm afraid. It's really not what those outside the profession think it is.

Add to this that a lawyer in a leading law firm ended her life I think last year due to work pressure. You do not get any support there whatsoever.

NamechangeforLCJ · 17/03/2024 12:32

Barrister and now KC here. Comprehensive educated, did non-law degree (arts subject) then law conversion course and now at a commercial set.

As others have said the main difference is that barristers are advocates. There are some solicitor advocates but the reality is that it’s predominantly at a relatively low level. I haven’t appeared against a solicitor advocate for many years and would be surprised if a firm instructed a solicitor advocate to appear in a case involving cross-examination or heavy advocacy. Barristers make legal submissions, they cross-examine and they have to be confident on their feet in what can be an unpredictable environment. They are the public face of what’s often a much larger legal team and have to be ready to take responsibility if things go wrong.

They do also advise on the law but that is usually in the context of litigation that is either ongoing or in prospect. Such advice tends to be in their field of specialism. I say “tends to be” because I have noticed as I have got more senior, and certainly in silk, that my cases straddle several areas and I am expected (usually with a junior’s help) to be able to advise on all of those. My cases remain broadly commercial but within that they are multidisciplinary (eg they won’t “just” be about banking law and may involve company law, insurance etc).

I think the advantages of self-employment can be overstated. We have all the downsides of self-employment (income sporadic, have to sort out own pension) with little of the independence. I can of course write an advice at the weekend instead of going into the office, but I can’t choose when my cases are listed for court. And in the early years your clerks will expect you to accept work and have a large degree of control over your diary. I used to take a month off in the summer but that’s a distant memory. Commercial solicitors are paying me to be available to a degree even when on holiday and you can’t just vanish when key decisions need to be made.

A big difference when I started was that I had little to do with going out and getting clients, marketing, or the client relationship side. That’s something that solicitors and especially partners do (and the barrister’s marketing focus is limited to getting the solicitor to instruct you). However as I have got more senior, client management increasingly is part of my job - I see the client in conference and maintaining and building the solicitor/client relationship (which may go back years before there was litigation and I first met them) is down to me too.

Also as I get more senior the strategic part of the job becomes more, and not less, of a team effort. When you are one barrister working with one (possibly quite junior) solicitor you may have to provide a lot of guidance, but when you are working as part of a team with several experienced litigation partners, it’s a discussion. The stereotype of counsel coming in and telling everyone how it is couldn’t be further from the truth.

So what it really boils down to is that when all that culminates in a hearing, I am the one doing the advocacy. That, to me, is the centre of the job and the one thing that remains constant and an absolute distinction between what a solicitor and a barrister do. Aside from OP’s son deciding if he wants to do law at all, it’s vital to know whether he wants to be an advocate - so any public speaking, acting, debating, mooting (mock trials) will be hugely helpful to decide if it’s for him.

Do I enjoy it? Hard to say. It is endlessly challenging, high stakes, at times unbelievably stressful and extremely well remunerated (not in crime or family NB). In the run up to a big hearing I work 60 hours a week. When it goes right it is exhilarating. Being a KC still has a social cachet I had not anticipated. Getting pupillage is highly competitive (much more so than when I was applying as the number of pupillages has contracted over the years). It’s not a job to go into half-heartedly. I can’t imagine doing anything else.

BeaRF75 · 17/03/2024 12:37

Law may have changed in recent years, but my perception is that it is incredibly difficult to become a barrister. Not just the dinners, but getting a place in chambers. Your face has to fit.
And even when you become a barrister, it's then hard to get briefs. You are self-employed, so no work = no money. Oh, and you can't sue for outstanding fees. A tiny number of barristers are v successful, but a lot are not. It seems to be a fascinating career, but very demanding.

NamechangeforLCJ · 17/03/2024 12:56

BeaRF75 · 17/03/2024 12:37

Law may have changed in recent years, but my perception is that it is incredibly difficult to become a barrister. Not just the dinners, but getting a place in chambers. Your face has to fit.
And even when you become a barrister, it's then hard to get briefs. You are self-employed, so no work = no money. Oh, and you can't sue for outstanding fees. A tiny number of barristers are v successful, but a lot are not. It seems to be a fascinating career, but very demanding.

I’d be the first to admit that there remains a huge amount to do in terms of diversity at the Bar. However, during my time in the profession there have been many improvements that have reduced the “face that fits” issue.

More than £4m per annum is available in scholarships to fund law conversion and Bar courses, which are predominantly awarded on a combination of need and merit; any reputable set will mark blind removing name, sex, age, school, uni; all barristers involved in recruitment are required to have done fair selection training; qualifying sessions at the Inns are now predominantly educational rather than dinners; unfunded pupillages are forbidden; and there are many mini-pupillage (work experience) schemes which are open only to non-Oxbridge and are fully funded.

By comparison with other professions like journalism, where unpaid internships remain common as I understand it, a lot has been done. We can always get better but there is a great deal of concern about doing concrete things to improve access.

As for fees: the rules were changed a number of years ago and we can now sue for our fees. We rarely do because of the need to maintain good relations with solicitors, though, so it’s not a complete answer.

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