Barristers vs Solicitors!

[HBGKC]

Posting here for traffic - I told my son I'd pick the hive-brain of Mumsnet on his behalf.

He's in lower sixth currently, and thinking about possible career paths. He feels more drawn towards being a barrister (reasons: more interesting work, suits his skill-set, possibility to make a concrete difference), but is also thinking about degree apprenticeships to be a solicitor (reasons: getting paid a v decent wage whilst training, possibility to transition to barrister later on if he still thinks that's a better option, can make lots of contacts during his training that would be useful later as a barrister).

There's also the option to do a normal BA of his choice and then the law conversion course afterwards.

The degree apprenticeship would probably be the most difficult to get on to, as they're insanely competitive from what I've heard; though all law-related careers seem to like that!

I'd be very grateful for any tips/advice/words of wisdom/caution from any solicitors and barristers on here, particularly those who've qualified in the last 10-15 years. Thanks in advance

My one piece of advice would be for him to do a different degree, then the conversion.

Everyone I know that did that route got training contracts quicker than law degrees. On speaking to the graduate recruitment partner, he said it’s because it shows they have more to them and that they obviously have a passion for law.

Also, as a side note solicitors can obtain ‘higher rights of audience’ meaning they can advocate in court without a barrister.

That's interesting @Chylka.

To be honest, I did Oxbridge law (but then solicitor) and didn't know anyone going for the barrister route who didn't go for a prestigious set in their field in London, so I didn't know that it didn't make a difference where they went. All the barristers were far more passionate about law than my solicitor friends - you kind of have to be. I lived with a girl who did the BVC when I was on the LPC and she didn't get any pupillage offers having tried before and after the BVC - she did get a related job in investigations for a regulatory authority though and was happy doing that.

Many of my solicitor friends did it for pragmatic reasons - money, stability, mostly - I think law is interesting and am glad I did it in many ways, but I would have recommended something else to my younger self as I think I'd have been much better and happier in accountancy and business. A lot of solicitors are over anxious high achievers and so City law firms can be a bit intense and the hours are crap as a junior.

Respectfully to your son OP, if he isn’t keen on the fast paced, crammed in nature of the conversion, law isn’t for him! (Although I believe to become a solicitor the new SQE means you can do any degree, not just a law degree, and then the SQE without the need for conversion course).

I qualified as a solicitor almost 5 years ago - from my personal experiences I don’t recognise any of the descriptions of it being toxic, or people discouraging their kids to do it. I started in house, now in a commercial firm, regional rather than city which probably makes a difference. I have two DC and my work balance is fine (on the whole!!)

That aside, it is high pressure, often stressful, and there’s often nowhere to hide. If I make a mistake, it could cost my clients a lot of money, which is pressure in its own right.

No idea where he’s got the idea barristers do all the interesting work, solicitors will instruct the barristers so will also be working on the case. But the advocacy element may well be a pull - that said, solicitors can also do advocacy.

I think it’s a worthwhile career, rewarding and enjoyable at the right firm, but it’s hard to get there if your heart isn’t fully in it. Parts of it are incredibly dull so I think you have to want to do it, not just want to earn loads (side note - outside of the city, junior salaries aren’t always what you’d expect given the stereotype of rich lawyers, regardless of whether you’re a barrister or solicitor)

The point I was making is that the Inns of Court is part of the regulatory requirements for all barristers. Every barrister has to join an inn and be called to the Bar there. You get some training there and it used to all be about dining at the Inn. It’s not a marker of prestige, everyone has to do it. But if you’re a sol, you’d have no reason to know. A solicitor mate of mine didn’t know about Bar Mess the other day, which surprised me, but then why would she?

We live in London, he's quite likely to go to uni in London, and also to stay working in London, if that makes a difference to any advice (all of which I very much appreciate you taking the time to give).

Interesting.

We've come across the solicitors-in-court option - at what point can one opt to do that, and what/how long is the training? Does one have to qualify in some way?

If his goal is London chambers/magic circle, he needs plenty of work experience! A few years ago the general stats nationally were around 15,000 graduates to 5,000 training contracts, so he’ll need plenty of experience to stand out! Magic circle training contracts are like gold dust in my experience, but then I didnt go to one of the top 10 for law which probably explains that!

Solicitors have rights of audience in magistrates court/county court when they qualify and can do a higher rights course to be able to advocacy in the higher courts. A couple of people I worked in house with did it at about 4-5 years after qualifying

I am a solicitor advocate - LLB with Higher Rights of Audience, spend 4.5/5 days in an average week in court. I run a law firm but have a large team who support me doing the admin tasks/paperwork.

I work long hours and it’s stressful but I love it (and I’m 20 years PQE).

I agree with PPs - work experience and a law degree - don’t rush into the decision!

Interesting thread. 2 of my friends solicitors, 2 barristers. I'm reading with interest.

I’m a solicitor with 22 years PQE. Both my kids are teens and have had drilled into them to never, ever enter any kind of legal sector job. They’re both high functioning autistic kids and they would be eaten alive. Especially in a London firm. I trained at one of the biggest law firms and it was crammed full of nasty bastards.

I wouldn’t read too much into his mum saying he’s lazy, I always thought of my dd as lazy because she’d never do anything at home if she could get me to do it for her, and I described her as lazy to her teacher who was horrified and told me she was one of the hardest working students she’d had and she obviously loved her work and being at school!

Name change so as not to out myself

If he's interested in money...

If he is extremely, extremely intelligent he can make a lot of money as a commercial barrister. But I'm cleverer than just regular Oxbridge clever. It's really really hard. And stressful.

Solicitoring is not quite as competitive, a bit less stressful (still stressful though), and you can probably get away without being exceptionally bright. (I'm a ten years qualified solicitor who does litigation offshore, including some advocacy.) Also you get a steadier income as you're not self employed so don't have to faff about with tax bills etc.

He doesn't need to decide yet though: first step is to get his law degree - unless he wants to do a different undergrad degree.

I enjoy my job: it involves learning, writing, thinking... the odd bit of drama and it can be a laugh. It's not easy though. I have thrown up with stress, worked through the night... which probably isn't uncommon. I wouldn't do it if it wasn't well paid, put it that way.

PS like your son I was also lazy at school (cos I found it easy) then had a shock when I got to my first year exams at Cambridge... he'll soon get the laziness knocked out of him if he goes to a good uni

I've seen your question about solicitors in court. At the top of the profession solicitors don't do much advocacy as even the best barristers tend to work out a bit cheaper (ie a GBP 600 solicitor might spend 20 hours preparing because they aren't specialist advocates, whereas a barrister might only need 4 hours to prep the same stuff).

I do bits of oral advocacy because where I live its more common (I'm English but an ex pat operating in an offshore jurisdiction). I don't love it as it's often weekend wrecking. A Monday hearing will always destroy your weekend.

There is also written advocacy: ie drafting skeleton arguments etc. Your son might like arbitration too, which would involve written argument.

I think it is hard to know what type of law you like until you start. I found litigation very dull at law school but turns out I am definitely a litigator by nature.

The conversion course is not 3 years in 1. It's not as deep as the full law degree. I don't think it matters if you do a law degree or not. obviously it is cheaper to do the law degree + LPC, than a different degree + GDL + LPC, as the latter means an extra year of study

Typo!

But I mean cleverer than just regular Oxbridge clever.

Well my name change so as not to reveal person info has not gone well... whoops

Hi @HBGKC . I’m a corporate partner in a silver circle firm in London. I’m nearly 20 years qualified and have been involved in grad recruitment and training for nearly 10 years.

The best things your son can do are (1) lots of work experience- across the whole spectrum of opportunities (open days, vac schemes, court days, shadowing the local solicitors), (2) some actual work (good grades and extra curricular are important, but not enough) as he needs to show he can graft and to have real skills/experiences to talk about at interviews and (3) develop interests in real life subjects, for example AI, data use & privacy in the modern world, clean tech etc- obviously off the back of what he is actually interested in.
All of this is because law is, at the end of the day, a business and showing he gets that and can think like a business person (or at least has the potential to do so) as well as being good at the law is essential as law is a horribly competitive environmental especially at entry level.

I echo PPs that the choice between lawyer and barrister is more about personal characteristics and the way they like to work. The way you describe you son sounds more barrister like to me, but I will again say that any degree of laziness is anathema to a successful legal career- it will be seen, heavily criticised (not nice) & he will fail. Doing just enough, especially if he wants to fly high, will absolutely not work.

I will also comment on his autism. He may find this difficult both in the sense of it being difficult for him (black & white rarely stands- I have a strong sense of justice and it has both got me into trouble and meant I have been extremely unhappy at times) but also as it may mean it is difficult for him to build strong, trusting relationships which is essential- the law is above all a people business and all about relationships. I have supervised several juniors with autism and they have always found it difficult to navigate- though if they find a successful niche they can be brilliant within it.

In terms of degree choice,it just needs to be academically rigorous and he needs a good story as why he did it and what it adds to him as a candidate. I have a science degree and over half the lawyers at my previous firm did too.

Finally in terms of my own experience my career has given me some great experiences, a strong sense of personal satisfaction and achievement (sometimes) and financial stability. It has also fucked up my personal life, led to me being sexually harassed and assaulted by colleagues and clients and on occasion had a significantly detrimental impact on my mental health. If I had my time over knowing what I know now I’m not 100% sure I’d choose it again… but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I will say it is much easier on the guys than the women still, at least in my specialism, but if he just wants to make money go be a trader or banker.

DIL Is doing the conversion . Am meeting her tomorrow in London and will not know until midday if she is free.

My DH is a barrister, we’ve been together since uni so I have experienced the whole process with him. He did a joint honours LLB degree which I think was good as he found the law part quite dry, so it broke that up. He didn’t get a pupilage straight after his BVC, he worked gaining other legal experience in that year and was then successful, but the process of applying for pupilages was hugely stressful and we moved areas for his pupilage. Many of those on his BVC never became practicing barristers.
The advocacy in court is only a part of the job, there are a lot of meetings, calls, reading, and writing submissions. He works a huge number of hours. You are self employed and need to be good at managing your money, keeping the right amount aside for tax and VAT bills, and keeping enough savings to get you through times no money comes in - even if you are working lots you never know when you will actually get paid for it, and one big case that is slow to pay can mess up your finances.
There is obviously also a big range of areas within law, and it might be helpful for your DS to narrow down what interests him, though my DH’s practice has evolved over time and isn’t what he did when he first started out.
I would also say it isn’t all academic intelligence that makes you successful as a barrister from what I see. Good people skills to work with a wide range of backgrounds, the ability to digest lots of info quickly and focus on key parts, and quick thinking are all important.

The decision about area /type of law is at least as big as solicitor Vs barrister

There's such a huge diversity within legal practice (both in terms of nature of the work and work life balance, salary etc that I don't think anyone can generalise about what the job is)

I knew what kind of niche I wanted, something intellectually stimulating, non litigious and with a public service element to it and a work life balance. I've managed a career that has largely kept all those elements, and I would say the majority of my colleagues are lovely if somewhat quirky intellectuals

My dad is a barrister (well, judge now) and loves his work. He's always found it stimulating. As a youngish child though he was junior in his career and my mum was a sahm and I remember it felt like finances fluctuated wildly. I definitely prefer the certainty of a salary

Forgot to say I have three solicitor apprentices in my team now and it seems like a great route. Trickier balancing work and study but on the other hand they will qualify with no debt, and even more importantly will not spend years studying the academic side only to find the don't enjoy the reality of the job.

@AllyMacbealmyarse love the user name. My sister literally became a solicitor only because she was obsessed with that show. She is doing very well now I should add, I thought she was mad at the time.

I am a Solicitor and I also qualified as a Crown Court advocate ( so higher rights wearing wig and gown )

Its 32 years since I first qualified. I would never have chosen this career if I could go back in time.

Horribly stressful ! I retired from ill health in 2014 ( caused by the job ) and Ive not worked in law since. I do not miss it

I wouldn’t say that barristers have a more interesting workload. They are specialists in advocacy. They only generally see one aspect of the law - litigation. Solicitors work across every single area of the law so there is much more scope to find something you really enjoy. That could be litigation but it could be regulatory or commercial work, tax, real estate, m&A, insurance, competition advice… so many possibilities. So I agree with those who say that he should get some work experience and look at both sides. Also get him to sit in his local court and observe for a few days. See what attracts him and what does not. But he’s still very young and his views may change.