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To think that Labour have just shot themselves in the foot?

871 replies

Redrosetat · 15/03/2024 15:56

https://twitter.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1768647056111861760?s=19&t=wqgtbWPG_X1xZDMhuF871A

‘Just now Labour MPs prevented debate on a new law to protect children and single sex spaces.

Instead they used parliamentary time to discuss ferret name choices.

@Keir_Starmer is terrified of debate on safeguarding & his MPs actively work to ignore the concerns of constituents’

https://twitter.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1768647056111861760?s=19&t=wqgtbWPG_X1xZDMhuF871A

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
ThatQuickFinch · 19/03/2024 16:05

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 08:21

Thank you for linking that letter, I hadn't read it before.

It doesn't say what you are suggesting it says. The EHRC was asked it's opinions by the Government, in particular Kemi Badenoch on changing the meaning of sex, it was asked to give a balanced view on the rights of people who would be impacted by this change. Clearly trans women with a GRC would be impacted by a change. This doesn't mean the change should not happen for the benefit of those of us who wish to rely on the pc of Sex, particularly in regard to single sex spaces.

Some parts of the letter you have ignored for the purpose of this discussion -

The EHRC has looked at this issue over several successive Board meetings and has considered various routes forward, all of which have advantages and disadvantages for one group or another. There is no straightforward balance, but we have come to the view that if ‘sex’ is defined as biological sex for the purposes of EqA, this would bring greater legal clarity in eight areas.

These are as follows.1 • Pregnancy and maternity: As things stand, protections in the EqA for pregnant women and new mothers fail to cover trans men who are pregnant and whose legal sex is male. Defining ‘sex’ as biological sex would resolve this issue. • Freedom of association for lesbians and gay men: If sex means legal sex, then sexual orientation changes on acquiring a GRC: some trans women with a GRC become legally lesbian, and some trans men with a GRC become gay men. As things stand, a lesbian support group (for instance) may have to admit a trans woman with a GRC attracted to women without a GRC or to trans women who had obtained a GRC. On the biological definition it could restrict membership to biological women.

Freedom of association for women and men: As things stand, a women’s book club (for instance) may have to admit a trans woman who had obtained a GRC. On the biological definition it could restrict membership to biological women. • Positive action. Currently, trans women with a GRC could benefit from ‘women-only’ shortlists and other measures aimed at increasing female participation. Trans men with a GRC could not. A biological definition of sex would correct this perceived anomaly.

• Occupational requirements. Employers are sometimes permitted to restrict positions to women or to men. An employer can (for example) require that a warden in a women’s or girls’ hostel be female. At present, such a role would be open to a trans woman with a GRC, but not to a trans man with a GRC. A biological definition of sex would correct this perceived anomaly.

• Single sex and separate sex services. Service providers are sometimes permitted to offer services to the sexes separately or to one sex only. For instance, a hospital might run several women-only wards. At present, the starting point is that a trans woman with a GRC can access a ‘women-only’ service. The service provider would have to conduct a careful balancing exercise to justify excluding all trans women. A biological definition of sex would make it simpler to make a women’s-only ward a space for biological women. • Sport. At present, to exclude trans women with a GRC from women’s sports, the organiser must show that it was necessary to do so in the interests of fairness or safety. A biological definition of sex would mean that organisers could exclude trans women from women’s sport without this additional burden.

• Data collection. When data are broken down by legal not biological sex, the result may seriously distort or impoverish our understanding of social and medical phenomena. A biological definition of sex would require public bodies like universities to apply this category, without the complexity added by a legal definition of sex, to the analysis of data collected in fulfilling the Public Sector Equality Duty.

It is interesting that some trans people (the female ones) will also benefit from clarity over the legal definition of sex in respect of a number of those benefits to women.

The letter goes on to say

On balance, we believe that redefining ‘sex’ in EqA to mean biological sex would create rationalisations, simplifications, clarity and/or reductions in risk for maternity services, providers and users of other services, gay and lesbian associations, sports organisers and employers. It therefore merits further consideration.

It then goes on to say that the government should seek legal advice and 'consider if there are other means of achieving the same ends'.

So you have not made up the parts you have selected to support your world view but you have omitted balance which is something we frequently see on these threads.

As I said upthread changing laws are not easy. Governments do have to consider effected parties and whether they might fall foul of other laws. I do not agree that making changes to protect women for the PC of sex would fall foul of European Human Rights Laws. The only way you could conclude that is if you think that women should have less rights than men with gender identities.

This is rapidly changing area of law and policy, as more and more women are being harmed because we have effectively lost words to describe ourselves independently of males and protections under the Equality Act wrt single sex exemptions, I would imagine political appetite to protect women from harms will increase. We are also human and deserve rights too after all.

Edited

As I made clear, repeatedly, on the other threads (that you seem to have read my posts on - you reference my spelling in them), I believe the law needs to be changed to better protect single sex spaces.

What I have pointed out, however, is that the changes are not going to be as quick and easy as some people imagine. They may not also be as fulsome.

If the law is to be successfully and lastingly changed (in light of the Article 8 issues) then it is going to require due care. This is, seemingly, why Badenoch has sought guidance from the EHRC in the first place.

I suspect that, ultimately, the law will be changed but perhaps not in quite such a wholesale manner as simply changing the definition of sex to mean biological sex, throughout the Act (due to the EHRC’s comment about the more focussed the changes are, the less likely they are to violate Article 8).

This is why I think Badenoch’s efforts are worth far, far more than Truss’s and that the latter is simply making political hay from the issue. I imagine that Truss also well knows that change will be complex, hence not doing anything to advance it when she was in Badenoch’s office, and is only now offering simple solutions (that the government has said are unworkable) from the back bench.

But this is why I have grown incredibly frustrated with these threads. Despite me repeatedly saying that I believe that the law needs to be changed to better clarify protections for single sex spaces, me saying “it’s actually going to be quite complicated, though” is enough for you, and other posters, to persistently grill me on me and my background.

You accuse me of selecting the sections of the EHRC’s response that support my world view and omitting those that don’t, and say that I therefore lack balance.

You, however, are wrongly assuming my world view (despite me having made it clear on the other threads). On the other threads, I also specifically referenced that the EHRC expressed that the Act would be improved, in various places, with reference to biological sex.

The reason I quoted only the hurdles and complexities, in my response to you, is because me saying they exist is what you were specifically challenging.

If I learned something else, from the other thread, it’s that left wing news sources are so highly objectionable to some posters that they will not read them, but I do think there is useful information, in here, re the process and timescales:

https://amp.theguardian.com/law/2023/apr/05/what-would-changing-the-equality-act-mean-for-trans-people-and-single-sex-spaces

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 16:42

ThatQuickFinch · 19/03/2024 16:05

As I made clear, repeatedly, on the other threads (that you seem to have read my posts on - you reference my spelling in them), I believe the law needs to be changed to better protect single sex spaces.

What I have pointed out, however, is that the changes are not going to be as quick and easy as some people imagine. They may not also be as fulsome.

If the law is to be successfully and lastingly changed (in light of the Article 8 issues) then it is going to require due care. This is, seemingly, why Badenoch has sought guidance from the EHRC in the first place.

I suspect that, ultimately, the law will be changed but perhaps not in quite such a wholesale manner as simply changing the definition of sex to mean biological sex, throughout the Act (due to the EHRC’s comment about the more focussed the changes are, the less likely they are to violate Article 8).

This is why I think Badenoch’s efforts are worth far, far more than Truss’s and that the latter is simply making political hay from the issue. I imagine that Truss also well knows that change will be complex, hence not doing anything to advance it when she was in Badenoch’s office, and is only now offering simple solutions (that the government has said are unworkable) from the back bench.

But this is why I have grown incredibly frustrated with these threads. Despite me repeatedly saying that I believe that the law needs to be changed to better clarify protections for single sex spaces, me saying “it’s actually going to be quite complicated, though” is enough for you, and other posters, to persistently grill me on me and my background.

You accuse me of selecting the sections of the EHRC’s response that support my world view and omitting those that don’t, and say that I therefore lack balance.

You, however, are wrongly assuming my world view (despite me having made it clear on the other threads). On the other threads, I also specifically referenced that the EHRC expressed that the Act would be improved, in various places, with reference to biological sex.

The reason I quoted only the hurdles and complexities, in my response to you, is because me saying they exist is what you were specifically challenging.

If I learned something else, from the other thread, it’s that left wing news sources are so highly objectionable to some posters that they will not read them, but I do think there is useful information, in here, re the process and timescales:

https://amp.theguardian.com/law/2023/apr/05/what-would-changing-the-equality-act-mean-for-trans-people-and-single-sex-spaces

But none of that is anything that we don't already know.

None of that was good reason for the MPs to prevent a debate from happening on the private members bill on these issues.

None of that means that Labour will be a force for good when it comes to making amendments to protect women from the harms of mixed spaces or that the Tory party is using it more than a political tool at the moment. (Although I do believe that Badenoch and Truss are genuine in their intentions on this).

Just because something is not straightforward it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed and addressed.

And most notably from the Guardian piece - Critics of changing the Equality Act also say trans people would feel they were being targeted, with the potential for real-world hostility towards them rising.

Well tough, there has been real- world hostility to women who have objected to the removal of our spaces without consent by the TRAs (using the vehicle of Stonewall).

In all of my life I've never known times more hostile to women in this country and worldwide. Most of that comes in the form of abuse over the internet but the unintended consequence of the 2 pieces of Labour legislation , The GRA and the Equality Act have resulted in quite horrible and dehumanising harms to women and children, mostly vulnerable women and children. The fact that Labour MPs talked about ferrets rather than how laws could be amended to rectify the wrongs done to the female sex and to vulnerable children and adults by the Act is disgusting.

I don't agree with your prediction that Sex won't be amended to specifically exclude all people who are not of the biological sex. It will be. There is nothing else that treats women as fully human. Men, even the ones with a special piece of paper, are not women.

EasternStandard · 19/03/2024 16:45

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 16:42

But none of that is anything that we don't already know.

None of that was good reason for the MPs to prevent a debate from happening on the private members bill on these issues.

None of that means that Labour will be a force for good when it comes to making amendments to protect women from the harms of mixed spaces or that the Tory party is using it more than a political tool at the moment. (Although I do believe that Badenoch and Truss are genuine in their intentions on this).

Just because something is not straightforward it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed and addressed.

And most notably from the Guardian piece - Critics of changing the Equality Act also say trans people would feel they were being targeted, with the potential for real-world hostility towards them rising.

Well tough, there has been real- world hostility to women who have objected to the removal of our spaces without consent by the TRAs (using the vehicle of Stonewall).

In all of my life I've never known times more hostile to women in this country and worldwide. Most of that comes in the form of abuse over the internet but the unintended consequence of the 2 pieces of Labour legislation , The GRA and the Equality Act have resulted in quite horrible and dehumanising harms to women and children, mostly vulnerable women and children. The fact that Labour MPs talked about ferrets rather than how laws could be amended to rectify the wrongs done to the female sex and to vulnerable children and adults by the Act is disgusting.

I don't agree with your prediction that Sex won't be amended to specifically exclude all people who are not of the biological sex. It will be. There is nothing else that treats women as fully human. Men, even the ones with a special piece of paper, are not women.

Edited

Absolutely

ThatQuickFinch · 19/03/2024 17:08

I do not see much point (outside of political gains) from introducing a private members bill (and having a short debate on it) when the actual, more careful process that is more likely to lead to legal change is already seemingly underway.

You seem to have more faith in Truss’s sincerity than I, or than the government do (a Whitehall source saying “The Bill has policy consequences which the Government is sympathetic to. The only questions which have puzzled ministers is why the MP proposing the Bill did not legislate for the changes when she was minister for women and equalities or when she was prime minister.”)

I cannot assure you that Labour, if they win the next election, will push amendments through - but they have said that they support Badenoch’s letter to the HREC and the shadow minister for women and equalities has said that they will clarify the law in order to better protect single sex spaces.

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 17:39

I do not see much point (outside of political gains) from introducing a private members bill (and having a short debate on it) when the actual, more careful process that is more likely to lead to legal change is already seemingly underway.

There a lot more point in doing that than what the Labour MPs did by avoiding the issue by talking about Ferrets.

I hope that Labour will see sense and reverse the unintended consequences of the Acts that it introduced.

Women are 51% of the electorate. It's astonishing to think that any political party would put the wishes of men with identities above the needs of women.

If Labour could be clear about it's intentions on this, then they stand a chance of winning back the vote of traditional Labour voting women who feel disenfranchised. As it stands I have no confidence that this is their intention because it runs contrary to their stated agenda which is to make the process for men to be legal women easier. Why do that if you don't mean it to confer the benefit of 'sex' on these men? It is entirely inconsistent with the proposition that they will make the necessary amendments to protect women.

So there is more chance of this coming in under a Tory government as things stand, but I have little faith that they will/ can do this in what remains of their time in power.

What a sorry state of affairs for women and children.

ThatQuickFinch · 19/03/2024 17:54

Truss also made it easier for people to get Gender Recognition Certificates, just 3 years ago (by simplifying the process, moving it to an online portal and cutting the fee for applying). Her words: “I am proud that we have made the process of getting a certificate fairer, simpler and much more affordable”. At that time, she also said she had no interest in banning trans people from single sex spaces.

Who knows, perhaps she has had a complete and genuine change of heart, occurring immediately once she no longer had the power to make a difference. I struggle to believe it, though.

To be more candid, I have personal and renewed dislike for Liz Truss, since she spoke at CPAC last month, sharing a stage with those who explicitly want to bring an end to democracy in the US and replace it with a religious theocracy, so that they can (among other things) continue their attacks on women’s bodily autonomy.

EasternStandard · 19/03/2024 17:56

Loads of people are moving on this thankfully

But generally Labour and the left are slower, not just in the U.K.

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 17:57

Things have changed in 3 years.

The harms to women can no longer be denied.

Yet the Labour Party is still talking about ferrets and talking about making it EVEN easier.

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 17:59

Yes look at the democrats in the States. So bad out there for women right now the Trump stands a chance of re -election.

I mean good grief.

BIossomtoes · 19/03/2024 18:00

The only thing that’s changed in slightly less than three years appears to be Liz Truss’ mind. In May 2021 she said:

In a statement after the reduction came into force, Ms Truss said: "As we build back better, we want transgender people to be free to live and to prosper in modern Britain."

"In the National LGBT Survey, 34% of transgender people told us that the cost of applying for a certificate was holding them back from doing so," Ms Truss said.

"Today we have removed that barrier, and I am proud that we have made the process of getting a certificate fairer, simpler and much more affordable."

cardibach · 19/03/2024 18:01

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 17:59

Yes look at the democrats in the States. So bad out there for women right now the Trump stands a chance of re -election.

I mean good grief.

Edited

That’s really not why Trump stands a chance. If he does.

EasternStandard · 19/03/2024 18:02

We now have stopped puberty blockers tf

Joining a few other sensible countries

ThatQuickFinch · 19/03/2024 18:02

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 17:59

Yes look at the democrats in the States. So bad out there for women right now the Trump stands a chance of re -election.

I mean good grief.

Edited

How do you square that with more and more women backing Biden over Trump?

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/31/gender-poll-2024-biden-trump-00138882

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 18:03

cardibach · 19/03/2024 18:01

That’s really not why Trump stands a chance. If he does.

Identity politics are a gift to the right wing.

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 18:04

ThatQuickFinch · 19/03/2024 18:02

How do you square that with more and more women backing Biden over Trump?

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/31/gender-poll-2024-biden-trump-00138882

How can I trust a poll which collates on gender rather than sex is accurate on women's (female sex) voting intentions?

cardibach · 19/03/2024 18:05

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 18:03

Identity politics are a gift to the right wing.

Identity politics are a creation of the right wing.

cardibach · 19/03/2024 18:06

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 18:04

How can I trust a poll which collates on gender rather than sex is accurate on women's (female sex) voting intentions?

You think the number of trans women is statistically significant?

BIossomtoes · 19/03/2024 18:07

cardibach · 19/03/2024 18:06

You think the number of trans women is statistically significant?

Took the words out of my mouth. Too few to make any difference.

ThatQuickFinch · 19/03/2024 18:07

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 18:04

How can I trust a poll which collates on gender rather than sex is accurate on women's (female sex) voting intentions?

Lol.

Not even gonna bother.

EasternStandard · 19/03/2024 18:08

We are where we are due to the GRA

Without that poor law forget genderism and people pushing it

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 18:09

cardibach · 19/03/2024 18:06

You think the number of trans women is statistically significant?

I have no idea.

But this is an issue isn't it? How can you tell if the people who are impacted by the removal of sex based rights are impacted if you can't get accurate data on their opinion?

Women are being harmed by these things in the US too, they know which party supports the inclusions of males in sports and other women's spaces.

I mean it is tricky in the US because a vote for Trump IS a disaster for women's rights in a way a vote for the Tories is not.

It's bad being a woman in the UK now but horrific in the US.

BIossomtoes · 19/03/2024 18:12

a vote for Trump IS a disaster for women's rights in a way a vote for the Tories is not.

That’s highly debatable.

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 18:12

ThatQuickFinch · 19/03/2024 18:07

Lol.

Not even gonna bother.

So the accurate collation of data on the sex of humans doesn't matter to you?

You can't see how collating data on gender makes it harder to identify which issues are important to the female sex?

My goodness.

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 18:14

BIossomtoes · 19/03/2024 18:12

a vote for Trump IS a disaster for women's rights in a way a vote for the Tories is not.

That’s highly debatable.

It's a matter of opinion.

BIossomtoes · 19/03/2024 18:17

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 18:12

So the accurate collation of data on the sex of humans doesn't matter to you?

You can't see how collating data on gender makes it harder to identify which issues are important to the female sex?

My goodness.

From the same article as the Truss quote:

The government estimates there are between 200,000 and 500,000 transgender people in the UK, although the actual figure is not known.

A total of 5,871 full GRCs have been granted since 2005, according to the latest official figures.

Just shy of 6,000 GRCs in 16 years is miniscule. The government estimate in 2021 is also very small as a proportion of the population. And of course those figures include trans men.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721725/GRA-Consultation-document.pdf