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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that Labour have just shot themselves in the foot?

871 replies

Redrosetat · 15/03/2024 15:56

https://twitter.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1768647056111861760?s=19&t=wqgtbWPG_X1xZDMhuF871A

‘Just now Labour MPs prevented debate on a new law to protect children and single sex spaces.

Instead they used parliamentary time to discuss ferret name choices.

@Keir_Starmer is terrified of debate on safeguarding & his MPs actively work to ignore the concerns of constituents’

https://twitter.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1768647056111861760?s=19&t=wqgtbWPG_X1xZDMhuF871A

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
EasternStandard · 16/03/2024 18:55

BIossomtoes · 16/03/2024 18:53

What has the bankers’ bonus cap to do with children living in poverty?

Did you miss the two child benefit

The policies are the same for both parties

You are just getting gender nonsense from Labour as the extra

BIossomtoes · 16/03/2024 19:03

EasternStandard · 16/03/2024 18:55

Did you miss the two child benefit

The policies are the same for both parties

You are just getting gender nonsense from Labour as the extra

No I didn’t miss that. The aim is to make employers pay decent wages so in work benefits aren’t subsidising them. Amazing that it’s taken so long for the “they’re both the same idiocy” to surface - you must think we’re stupid.

EasternStandard · 16/03/2024 19:06

BIossomtoes · 16/03/2024 19:03

No I didn’t miss that. The aim is to make employers pay decent wages so in work benefits aren’t subsidising them. Amazing that it’s taken so long for the “they’re both the same idiocy” to surface - you must think we’re stupid.

The policies are the same, maybe your party thinks you’re stupid 🤷‍♀️

Take it up with them.

BIossomtoes · 16/03/2024 19:11

Maybe you should take it up with yours if you seriously believe that.

EasternStandard · 16/03/2024 19:16

You seem particularly emotional wrt Labour. A few posts re what you’d do if they lost made me realise how much it matters to you.

I don’t share that level of emotion, but I do look at policies and economics as a matter of interest

I also listen to economists who’ve said similar on what would provide extra funding so feel ok about my reasoning

IClaudine · 16/03/2024 19:22

EasternStandard · 16/03/2024 18:33

Well I don’t see why you get to decide clarity shouldn’t be provided. You don’t speak for me and a fair few others who do want it. Just don’t listen if it’s of no interest.

Labour seems more concerned with hiding the issue, than being clear.

Do you have any interest in winning people over to your way of thinking?

The hostility and belittling some posters display to those who may not be 100% in agreement with them is on a par with the extreme TRAs. Like them, some posters don't seem willing to accept there may be a middle way.

It will be so interesting to revisit these thread in five years' time.

Have a lovely evening.

tennesseewhiskey1 · 16/03/2024 19:24

Look - no one cares that labour don’t protect women and children. They don’t even know what a women is. All they know iS they want the tories out at any expense.

JessS1990 · 16/03/2024 19:25

EasternStandard · 16/03/2024 18:55

Did you miss the two child benefit

The policies are the same for both parties

You are just getting gender nonsense from Labour as the extra

Well there we have it.

But of course this thread and the many others on the same subject are not simply people searching for reasons to vote Tory, no of course not.

EasternStandard · 16/03/2024 19:26

IClaudine · 16/03/2024 19:22

Do you have any interest in winning people over to your way of thinking?

The hostility and belittling some posters display to those who may not be 100% in agreement with them is on a par with the extreme TRAs. Like them, some posters don't seem willing to accept there may be a middle way.

It will be so interesting to revisit these thread in five years' time.

Have a lovely evening.

Haha at this. Saying women should get clarity is ‘extreme’ how bizarre.

Insult then go.

In five years? Hopefully we’ll be past this Orwellian nonsense that so many adults promote to the detriment of women and children.

JessS1990 · 16/03/2024 19:27

EasternStandard · 16/03/2024 19:26

Haha at this. Saying women should get clarity is ‘extreme’ how bizarre.

Insult then go.

In five years? Hopefully we’ll be past this Orwellian nonsense that so many adults promote to the detriment of women and children.

Are women not adults?

BIossomtoes · 16/03/2024 19:27

EasternStandard · 16/03/2024 19:16

You seem particularly emotional wrt Labour. A few posts re what you’d do if they lost made me realise how much it matters to you.

I don’t share that level of emotion, but I do look at policies and economics as a matter of interest

I also listen to economists who’ve said similar on what would provide extra funding so feel ok about my reasoning

Edited

Yes it does matter to me. It matters to a lot of people. And it’s nothing to do with emotion (what an incredibly misogynist comment), it’s about wanting to live in a decent, humane country.

EasternStandard · 16/03/2024 19:33

BIossomtoes · 16/03/2024 19:27

Yes it does matter to me. It matters to a lot of people. And it’s nothing to do with emotion (what an incredibly misogynist comment), it’s about wanting to live in a decent, humane country.

Nothing to do with your sex, you could be male and I’d say the same having read the post re what you’d do if they lost

I know you feel Labour will be like some nostalgia, on numbers alone I can’t see it. Which is why an economist saying the same thing was interesting.

There is a way to get a funding bump but it seems to be dismissed so far

RufustheFactualReindeer · 16/03/2024 19:33

But of course this thread and the many others on the same subject are not simply people searching for reasons to vote Tory, no of course not

this is an anonymous forum, no one here needs to search for a reason to vote tory

they can vote for whoever they please, this being a democracy and all, they certainly don’t need to pretend they are going to vote one way of the other

BIossomtoes · 16/03/2024 19:40

This thread isn’t about me @EasternStandard. Maybe hold back on making it personal?

EasternStandard · 16/03/2024 19:51

Posts don’t usually stick with me but I’m pretty sure Labour will win so your fears will likely not materialise

I do care about women’s sex based rights a lot, and think the VAT policy is very poor. But if they did something around the EU a lot of it is very centrist imo. The examples below are of similar policies which I’m fine with generally.

I mean I don’t find them great as others do but I can see others are very keen so if they could sort out gender, drop VAT and deal with EU I’d be fine

WaterWeasel · 16/03/2024 19:54

BIossomtoes · 16/03/2024 18:01

TW just do not pass.

Many of them do. I know one who you’d never suspect was anything but a perfectly ordinary young woman.

Umm, nope.

WaterWeasel · 16/03/2024 19:55

EasternStandard · 16/03/2024 17:59

Third spaces are a good way to go.

It means women wouldn’t need to validate males through access

Not all women consent and a no should matter

Third spaces ARE a good way to go. Transwomen do not want them.

BIossomtoes · 16/03/2024 19:57

WaterWeasel · 16/03/2024 19:54

Umm, nope.

Umm yep.

WaterWeasel · 16/03/2024 20:01

Not a single TW in the public eye passes. Carefully staged pics are not reality however much TRAs like to pretend that it is.

lifeturnsonadime · 16/03/2024 20:05

BIossomtoes · 16/03/2024 19:27

Yes it does matter to me. It matters to a lot of people. And it’s nothing to do with emotion (what an incredibly misogynist comment), it’s about wanting to live in a decent, humane country.

A decent humane country doesn't put men's rights to identify as they wish above the safeguarding of women.

A decent humane country doesn't go against scientific advice concerning vulnerable gender confused children.

That we are in the position we are currently in and that Labour won't rectify these harms bothers many many women.

In 5 years time I hope that when people realise that they were advocating for the rights of males and harms to children they don't say they weren't warned about it.

Labour could be the party to do good and be humane to women and vulnerable children but instead they will continue the harms done under the Tory government and at the moment are saying that they will make things worse for women and children wrt these issues.

BIossomtoes · 16/03/2024 20:15

A decent humane country doesn’t allow a million kids to live in destitution. Yet here we are.

EasternStandard · 16/03/2024 20:18

lifeturnsonadime · 16/03/2024 20:05

A decent humane country doesn't put men's rights to identify as they wish above the safeguarding of women.

A decent humane country doesn't go against scientific advice concerning vulnerable gender confused children.

That we are in the position we are currently in and that Labour won't rectify these harms bothers many many women.

In 5 years time I hope that when people realise that they were advocating for the rights of males and harms to children they don't say they weren't warned about it.

Labour could be the party to do good and be humane to women and vulnerable children but instead they will continue the harms done under the Tory government and at the moment are saying that they will make things worse for women and children wrt these issues.

Edited

In 5 years time I hope that when people realise that they were advocating for the rights of males and harms to children they don't say they weren't warned about it.

Why is there not some sort of understanding. Pp who care so extensively about Labour encourage a change on gender and they get their gov and women and children are not losing out

I know a few are actively for gender ideology and males in female spaces and sports but many are not even if they want the other stuff they think Labour will do

lifeturnsonadime · 16/03/2024 20:21

BIossomtoes · 16/03/2024 20:15

A decent humane country doesn’t allow a million kids to live in destitution. Yet here we are.

I know, so why can't Labour help those children AND help with the issues that women and children face as a result of the removal of women's single sex spaces and being gender non -conforming.

These issues will cost NOTHING btw. Reverting back to single sex spaces is cost neutral and it will cost the NHS less in the long run to allow children to develop normally with a watchful wait approach and appropriate counselling / mental health support for the vulnerable children who are struggling with issues around gender.

So what are Labour worried about? Or do they just not care about women and children wrt to these issues?

JessS1990 · 16/03/2024 20:31

lifeturnsonadime · 16/03/2024 20:21

I know, so why can't Labour help those children AND help with the issues that women and children face as a result of the removal of women's single sex spaces and being gender non -conforming.

These issues will cost NOTHING btw. Reverting back to single sex spaces is cost neutral and it will cost the NHS less in the long run to allow children to develop normally with a watchful wait approach and appropriate counselling / mental health support for the vulnerable children who are struggling with issues around gender.

So what are Labour worried about? Or do they just not care about women and children wrt to these issues?

Do we know why the current Equalities Minister is not getting on with dealing with this apparently cost free issue?

lifeturnsonadime · 16/03/2024 20:50

JessS1990 · 16/03/2024 20:31

Do we know why the current Equalities Minister is not getting on with dealing with this apparently cost free issue?

I don't know. Probably because there is not the political appetite for it.

But what I do know is that Labour's position on this is as clear as mud and they are likely to win the next election so will be in a position to rectify the ills caused in the last 14 years.

We now have clear evidence harms to women and children in single sex spaces. We have medical evidence, in the form of the Cass review and other studies from abroad and the WPath files that putting children, on even social transition pathways is harmful. We know that puberty blockers are harmful. We know that a vast number of children who have difficulties with gender fall within other vulnerable categories, like being autistic or abuse victims or children in care or being homosexual. We know that all of these categories of children would benefit from watchful waiting (most gender questioning pre-pubescent children change their minds post puberty) and/ or therapy if they are feeling very distressed.

In spite of all of the above the Labour Party seem to be saying that -

  • They will make it easier for men to be legal women.
  • They will ban all forms of conversion therapy. Most people assume this means horrible almost torturous behaviour towards trans people (which would be awful) but it doesn't, it means therapy to explore the other reasons they may be struggling with their gender (like being gay or being autistic).
  • They will put trans health care at the top of NHS waiting lists, even though this is not evidence based and there is increasing evidence of detransitioners and harms done to those who have these treatments.

So this has no regard to women or the vulnerable children caught up in this, my own autistic daughter was very nearly one of them.

With regards to women's spaces they seem to be saying that some spaces will be for biological women only, but haven't defined which ones. There is also no process under current legislation which allows this to exclude the men who are legal women by virtue of a Gender Recognition Certificate which Keir Starmer proposes to make it easier to obtain. So it all seems very wishy washy and unworkable. 'Biological woman' is not even a thing under the current legislation and case law strongly suggests that single sex spaces should include men who are legal women.

There are a good many women who are traditional Labour Party voters, I am one of them, who are completely exasperated by this.

At best the Labour Party are fence sitting because they don't want to piss off the trans rights activists. At worse they are fence sitting because they don't want to piss of women by being overtly pro- the rights of males to be anywhere they want to be based on their gender identity over women's rights to be safeguarded from all males, prior to an election.

This is why the fillibuster (the point of this OP) was so frustrating. We need to know why Labour wants to stop this PMB which would stop these harms.. How can we have any faith that they will put these harms right when a) they won't talk about it and b) they actively try to prevent a discussion?

I would LOVE to be able to vote Labour, I don't think wanting to know what they stand for and the ramifications on women wrt single sex spaces and children is an unreasonable position.