Former boss refusing reference - give him a piece of my mind?

[PralinesandCream]

I’m hoping for some input on a situation that’s currently playing out at work. FYI I normally just read posts and every now and again comment, this is my first post.

So long story short: I was on track for a promotion. An agreement about the last few steps I needed to take were put onto paper last March. I fulfilled the remaining tasks around autumn time and just needed to wait for the official posting of the vacancy for the promotion so I could apply formally.

For company reasons I moved departments at the end of last year. My flexibility was appreciated by the bosses higher up the food chain and as such the move wouldn’t have any effect on the track to promotion.

This week the vacancy came up for the promotion. My former boss (old departement) is now suddenly refusing to give me the reference I need to apply. He has form for doing things like this. He backs friends and people he likes and they get the nice tasks and promotions. I on the other hand have worked so hard and have jumped every hurdle put in front of me and now it seems I am not even afforded the chance to apply to be formally considered for the promotion.

I’m beyond furious and want to give him a piece of my mind. At the same time I also still want the reference and giving him a piece of my mind will effectively cut my nose to spite the face.

AIBU to want to call it as it is?

My meeting is later today, I really would appreciate some support and/or words of advise. Many thanks

Also I feel your pain. Why is being difficult about it? Just to be an wanker probably. And most likely he won’t get away with it. He’s not really doing himself any favours as others will pick up on this behavior!

Yes you do. Especially if there’s potential you might want to submit it as evidence at a tribunal. Covert recordings can be rejected by the tribunal.

https://www.mad-hr.co.uk/blog/how-to-manage-employee-requests-to-record-meetings

OP I suggest asking to record the meeting in advance, for your records. If it’s being held over Teams (even better!) ask to start the transcript or video recording.

If he declines, make your own notes and send a copy to both your current and previous manager asking them to confirm their agreement or amend by X date.

From what you’ve said it’s possible you may end up going down the grievance procedure. I would ask HR for advice.

I’m definitely in favour of allowing recordings, ideally video recordings - I work in HR and they avoid any ambiguity, good for all parties! I just prefer transparency when doing so.

Do not do this!!! The recording I mean... Unless you have the agreememt of everyone in the room!!

My organisation stays clear of identifying people as "on-track" for promotion and them waiting for vacancies.
It seems odd that there would be a departmental move if such promotion was imminent.

I have also never been asked for a reference for internal vacancies. If you request a reference from the business its limited to years service and attendance etc....very impersonal.
But it's common for recruiting managers to informally talk to current and past managers once they have narrowed a shortlist.

I would have thought if you are on track for promotion within same org....from 121s with your previous manager, the manager recruiting for the promotion role would be familiar with you and your work.

Update: the old manager came with a list of new points he feels I need to work on. I challenged them and pointed out that he had never raised them before. He agreed that this was the first time he’d raise them.
he thought waiting an other year would be beneficial.

The new boss took it all in his stride. I tried to follow his example. The old boss was trying so hard to make me look bad, that he looked ridiculous himself. By the end of the meeting I felt that I kept my nerve and got my points across. I had a good chat with my new manager. I’m going to push forward with my application. The old manager is however now going to put his new points on paper. I will challenge them obviously during the procedure. I really feel that the old manager is being really unfair, but at the same time I’m gaining confidence that others in the procedure will pick up on just that.

I understand that the procedure has raised various questions. I’m not based in the UK and things run differently here procedurally. Aside that, my post basically is about how to deal with an unfair situation and shitty manager while feeling strongly about the situation. I was very grateful for the advice given and used a few of the questions and suggestions during the meeting.

I didn’t end up recording the meeting. I decided that if I felt I need to have a back up of the conversation, there are bigger issues at hand, like deciding if I want to stay in this environment.

Many thanks again for all your responses. They helped me stay grounded enough to act professional (did have a good cry in the car driving home though).

What does your new manager think of this? Does he think your old manager is being unfair?

What about HR?

It does seem very strange not to even give a basic reference.

He finds the situation all a bit unusual and unfair towards me.

I agree it is strange, but tbh in my gut I’ve always felt my previous manager wasn’t a fan of me. Ive gone above and beyond and he’s now nick picking and blowing small things up.
The old manager will give a reference now, but it will include all his new points. I will object and because he’s now raising them for the first time, I’m confident things will eventually settle down and people will see it for what it is. I’m just very disappointed that one person can be so unfair and cause so much unnecessary stress and take up valuable energy I could use for something else.

Well done for staying calm and getting your points across. Old boss sounds awful!

Can I suggest that when you go in to interview for the role, that you let them know that you have been working towards this role for XXX time and then give the action points you were originally given to tick off, as examples of how you’ve prepared for the role, so they know you have been wanting the job for some time.

Don’t voluntarily address any of the additional points raised by your old boss today, but if they come up (either as direct feedback from old boss, or as general “questions”), prepare ahead, with answers on how you have already overcome these, or if you haven’t, how you would tackle these within the role. It would show you’re in control, aware of any weaknesses and have a plan to combat them.

If old boss is directly quoted, stay neutral and say “I don’t think we were completely aligned on my readiness, as some new points were raised on xxx date, which was xxx amount of time, after moving into the new department under new manager. These points hadn’t been made with the last set of feedback when I did report to old manager, which caused a bit of confusion, but I’ve had a chance to consider the feedback and here’s how I’d tackle these things. “

Very kind, thank you. Im feeling very chuffed that I managed to keep my cool.

Also appreciative of your advice! Definitely taking it on board so I have a plan for the next steps.

Of course you do.

Bloody well done. Huge round of applause for holding your nerve and keeping your head up. Your old boss sounds like a twat of the highest order and I hope he gets a mouse infestation in his house.

Good luck with the application.

Thank you 🙏 the mouse infestation made me giggle ;)

I hope that when you're in your new role, you can steal all the good non-favourite people who've ever been on twat's team and right some wrongs.

Well done, OP. Good luck with moving on from your horrible old manager. The new one sounds a much better prospect.

This! My old manager was a master tactician when faced with this type of nonsense and would always take this slightly bemused but very polite approach - with great results.
I would also advise that you read the Staff Handbook, in the sure & certain knowledge that the ars*hole manager will not have a clue what’s in there. It may hold the answer.
Finally, how does this sit with any Equalities policy that you company may/should have? You are asking for the chance to compete for this job, not to be handed the post. You’re being disadvantaged from competing because???
Good luck OP.

@theusualwednesday great advice - kill with kindness and a sprinkle of ignorance around HR policy. OP, Always play the long game, your paths may cross again in future promotions. Good luck !

I once worked for a firm with a manager who had a reputation for being a hatchet woman. When I left, I thought we parted on good terms but then she absolutely slagged me off when phoned for a reference.

The director of the new company told me this and I immediately presumed that the job offer had been withdrawn. On the contrary - he said that she had sounded quite demented and he thought she might be mad!

Keep things amicable and professional. Can you speak to someone in HR about this.

I was always of the understanding that a reference had to by law focus on your strengths and good points and couldn’t be negative ?! You’re not in the U.K. so might be worth reading up on the employment law around negative references

Urban myth in the UK, although quite a common one!

They can be as negative as the company wants them to be, as long as they are factual and accurate.

I understood that they can't be negative but have to stick to dates of hiring/leaving and whether there are any disciplinary processes in place.

That isn’t the law but it is company policy a lot of the time.

Nobody wants liability for providing an inaccurate reference, so easier just to say “X worked here as X job title between X and X dates” with a disclaimer at the end. Very hard to get sued on the back of that 😆

Why would there be laws about what can be written in a reference? Isn't it common sense that you can write anything as long as it's true and provable?