Former boss refusing reference - give him a piece of my mind?

[PralinesandCream]

I’m hoping for some input on a situation that’s currently playing out at work. FYI I normally just read posts and every now and again comment, this is my first post.

So long story short: I was on track for a promotion. An agreement about the last few steps I needed to take were put onto paper last March. I fulfilled the remaining tasks around autumn time and just needed to wait for the official posting of the vacancy for the promotion so I could apply formally.

For company reasons I moved departments at the end of last year. My flexibility was appreciated by the bosses higher up the food chain and as such the move wouldn’t have any effect on the track to promotion.

This week the vacancy came up for the promotion. My former boss (old departement) is now suddenly refusing to give me the reference I need to apply. He has form for doing things like this. He backs friends and people he likes and they get the nice tasks and promotions. I on the other hand have worked so hard and have jumped every hurdle put in front of me and now it seems I am not even afforded the chance to apply to be formally considered for the promotion.

I’m beyond furious and want to give him a piece of my mind. At the same time I also still want the reference and giving him a piece of my mind will effectively cut my nose to spite the face.

AIBU to want to call it as it is?

My meeting is later today, I really would appreciate some support and/or words of advise. Many thanks

OP, repost this in the 'Legal' section, you will get some good advice there.

This seems like a great strategy of he won't comply. Give your new manager all your appraisals and outline everything for them so they can fully stand over a reference. The old manager sounds like a jerk

This is a disgrace op, you poor thing. Hope you get sorted today.

I’d put his name down for a reference anyway and speak to the hiring manager about it. If the hiring manager is as senior or more senior than him I think he’d back down pretty quick.

Or speak to HR about it.

But no way would I give him a piece of my mind. It’s not professional. Instead I’d just go in and be assertive and ask him directly why he won’t give a reference.

It's all well and good asking your old manager for things in writing. But generally, you'll find the sneaky bastards alway make sure that they don't supply you with any ammo.

I'd get your existing Manager on your side, which he generally appears to be, and see how the meeting pans out.

Then decide on your next steps.

Hi, I haven't read enough to see if anyone has already said this but DO NOT record the meeting without first asking and getting the permission of everyone at the meeting.

Someone in my department is in the middle of a disciplinary for this very reason, she recorded another staff member without her knowledge and was later found out.

I'd contact HR and say 'I'm a bit stuck here, I want to apply for XYZ promotion but my boss has refused to give me a reference. Can I apply anyway?'

I see others have counselled against recording the meeting. I've done it on several occasions. I spoke to a lawyer about it and was told it's not illegal to record people but it may be to play that recording to other people. I think in a case where I was being badly managed and a grievance was potentially developing, I'd do it.

It's useful, anyway, to be able to transcribe what was said at a later date and put that back to them in an email: 'From the notes I took during our meeting you said you would do x, y, z and you want me to do A, B, C. Can you confirm that I've got that right?' At the very least it will enable you to listen back and check what they actually said: sometimes in these situations nerves and having to think fast on your feet can make it difficult to recall exactly what happened. Good luck.

Probably a mysoginist? Ok...perhaps he's Sith too. And a bandit. Potential terrorist as well. Definitely a psychopath and no doubt wants to use a chainsaw on puppy dogs.

FFS 🙄

Nope. You might need it to use the recording for anything but that’s usually up to whoever is deciding on that element.

For example just last year I went to tribunal with a recording that wasn’t consented to prior, it was up to the judge to decide whether to allow it - she did allow it due to the contents.

It makes me chuckle when people confuse the fact you need permission to record in criminal proceedings with a workplace drama

Maybe ask new boss to get some insight from old boss and effectively write a joint reference in his name... I have spoken to x about her and he said y. When she moved to my team she was recommended by x who said z. Something like that anyway. Plus add a bit of his own.

You’re talking about the status of such recordings, and whether they are permissible and admissible.

That is a separate matter as to whether a specific workplace and employer allows it. Many consider it to be misconduct. Ironically, in a dispute about the underlying matter, the recording could be used despite it resulting in the employee’s dismissal, but it won’t make the dismissal unlawful.

It depends what they’re recording

As it definitely can make the dismissal unlawful.

I thought it was illegal to refuse to give a reference….maybe I’m wrong

You are all kinds of wrong

I never understand why the advice on MN is always “take your phone! Secretly record the meeting!” when actually that advice amounts to “covertly record someone! Commit an act of gross misconduct and give them an excuse to sack you!”

Seriously, don’t do it. As an employment lawyer I’ve seen this used as a reason/excuse to fire trouble makers many times over the years. Of course, it’s fine if you never get found out - but if you’re not planning to disclose it, then what’s the point in recording in the first place? I had one case where a woman had a potentially valid constructive dismissal claim - but she ruined it completely with the recordings she made, because the judge decided she was effectively trying to trap them and had committed gross misconduct herself. Each case is different of course, but I’d always advise against it except for in extreme circumstances (and this isn’t one of them).

Personally I would send a polite email asking why he had declined to give a reference and then escalate to HR if necessary.

So it’s not as black and white as it’s not illegal and therefore it’s fine, as you keep claiming on this thread…

It’s fine to record

The grey area is what you use the recording for and how

Goodness me, people are dense on here

The irony of your post when I’ve never actually said it’s illegal to record…

You seem to be blowing throngs out of proportion. I don’t understand why if the reference is supposed to come from your line manager, you wouldn’t ask your current line manager?

If providing references is a line manager’s responsibility, then it is nothing to do with your previous line manager. He might give feedback to the current one to assist, but he’s probably conscious of the internal requirements and processes rather than misogynistic or a bully 🤷🏻‍♀️

I’m not sure what going in all guns blazing to give a piece of your mind is going to achieve and recording the meeting is deliberately antagonistic.

That’s not irony

Again, dense

Now you’re starting to show your ignorance rather than just simply being misinformed, which explains your posts on this thread.

I’m bowing out as there’s no point engaging any further.

Hope one of the suggestions works and leads to the reference you need. If you get the new job, afterwards raise a formal complaint about his behaviour.

It’s not illegal to walk down the road wearing a swastika, but if I turned up at work wearing one, at best I’d be suspended, at worst dismissed for gross misconduct.

Yes, I know. That’s my point? Think your post should be aimed at the poster who is focusing solely on whether it’s illegal when posters have responded to her suggestion to record the meeting.

So the reference needs needs to officially come from current nice manager? But you’ve only been there a few months, so do you also need a reference from old manager or does current manager just write one taking his input into account? Presumably this needs to be worked out first!

Did old manager write a reference for you to get current position? Can’t they just use that as it’s not very old, plus the reference from new manager?

I’d probably go down the route above of politely and kind of dimly emailing HR copying everyone in to confirm. Making it sound like old manager is just refusing cos he thinks it’s not his job rather than he’s being an arse. I’d only escalate to asking why and evidencing appraisals etc if he then specifically says he won’t do it.