Former boss refusing reference - give him a piece of my mind?

[PralinesandCream]

I’m hoping for some input on a situation that’s currently playing out at work. FYI I normally just read posts and every now and again comment, this is my first post.

So long story short: I was on track for a promotion. An agreement about the last few steps I needed to take were put onto paper last March. I fulfilled the remaining tasks around autumn time and just needed to wait for the official posting of the vacancy for the promotion so I could apply formally.

For company reasons I moved departments at the end of last year. My flexibility was appreciated by the bosses higher up the food chain and as such the move wouldn’t have any effect on the track to promotion.

This week the vacancy came up for the promotion. My former boss (old departement) is now suddenly refusing to give me the reference I need to apply. He has form for doing things like this. He backs friends and people he likes and they get the nice tasks and promotions. I on the other hand have worked so hard and have jumped every hurdle put in front of me and now it seems I am not even afforded the chance to apply to be formally considered for the promotion.

I’m beyond furious and want to give him a piece of my mind. At the same time I also still want the reference and giving him a piece of my mind will effectively cut my nose to spite the face.

AIBU to want to call it as it is?

My meeting is later today, I really would appreciate some support and/or words of advise. Many thanks

Can you explain the situation to the new manager and ask him to help? May be easier if his peer ask the old boss for the reference ?

Apply for the role, state you requested the reference from him on X date. You could even attach the appraisal. if they don’t accept your application, raise it under the grievance policy and be factual.

if you have written evidence of his past positive feedback and agreement that you were near ready for promotion would dig that out too.

Are you allowed to record meetings???

So my new manager is happy to give me a reference. The only thing is I started working here in January, his first hand input would be very limited. I worked for the other manager for over 5 years and in my field it wouldn’t raise questions if I hadn’t asked him.

Thank you for the new perspective, I think this might be a good way out. I will ask my new boss for a reference and he can say he took the old bosses feedback into consideration.

Surely he can't refuse to give a reference? I'd apply and if he's still refusing go to HR and ask them to discuss with him directly what his reasons are. If you've not been made aware of any performance issues then his reasonings are ridiculous (even then he should still give a reference).

Don't give him an earful, as much as you might like to, especially if you still work for the company.

With regard to recording the meeting, you do have to ask permission. A good way to do this is along the lines of:

[place phone on table which is already recording]
"Would it be ok if I record this for my notes? Just to make sure there are no misunderstandings."

If he says NO, then that tells you everything you need to know.

Good that your new manager will be there. I'll bet that you're not the only one who knows this man has his own agenda. Wanker.

So have you not actually asked your new boss for a reference, even though that’s what should actually happen? Really, you can’t complain about an old boss who’s actually following procedure can you? Also, under no circumstances try to record the meeting. If you’re caught doing this, it could be classed as gross misconduct and you’d be out on your ear! If the meeting doesn’t go well, make sure you take notes whilst the others are still present and get their agreement as to the content of the notes.
“Old Boss X explained that he was unable to give me a reference because of A, B and C.”
”New Boss B explained that she would write the reference after discussing the content with Boss A”
”Boss A + B both agree that these notes are a true record of this meeting.”

Yes, I have asked my new boss for his backing. As mentioned he’s happy to do so. He did however point out that his reference will be limited to some degree because I have only be working for him since January. He said I should also ask my old boss who I worked for for 5 years. I don’t believe that my old boss refusing to confirm my track record is him following procedure. I also don’t feel that me taking issue with the way my old boss is behaving is me ‘complaining’ , but take onboard your view.

Any recording would purely be for my own benefit.

As soon as the discussion starts in the meeting, interrupt your old boss and say “before we begin, can I confirm if this meeting is being minuted and whether a copy of those notes will be sent to hr”. It will at least make him pause to think about the fact what he says is being evidenced and shared with hr.

Thank you all for your support and advice! It is very much appreciated as I was unnecessarily getting anxious and unnerved by it all. I am off to work now and will update when the day is done.

You don’t need to ask permission to record.

Some good advice here. Take notes in so you don't forget to ask anything. Good luck!

I would have thought it needs to be your current line manager giving the reference, with any input he requests from the old line manager. Best thing you can do is hand it to new line manager to just write the reference. The company should be interviewing you for the role, not either of your managers, it is usually just a formality that the manager can respond they are aware and fine with it; in particular to confirm that there is no performance issue nor grievance in your current role.

You can only record with permission, for your own benefit or not. You could be jeopardising your career.

Personally I'd just drop the scrabbling about to give attention to the old line manager; you've moved past that role, so he isn't relevant any more.

Are you sure, I have a vague memory of being told at work that you do have to have an agreement for recordings

Agree with so many posts here OP especially get EVERYTHING in writing.

On top of everything else more important, with dicks like this I take pleasure in adding to their Inbox traffic.

This is such an excellent response! I too love to kill with kindness

Great suggestions here and brilliant there’s a work around option. As for old boss, don’t get mad, get even. Congratulations on the new role and hope karma fucks old boss sideways, to be crude.

Hope meeting goes well OP - sending virtual solidarity 👊

Prepare a few counter points for your meeting with new and old boss.

Let them do the talking and if old boss makes any negative points, rather than defending yourself by pointing out all the ways he is wrong, ask him follow up questions instead, so that he’s the one defending himself.

Example: “I can’t give you a reference, because I don’t think your performance was where it needed to be”
You: “That’s concerning to hear, as this is the first time I’ve been made aware of any issues. Could tell me what the performance issues were?”
Old Boss: [Gives examples]
You: “Can I ask why these were not raised at the time to allow me to address them? I was of the understanding that I had met the criteria laid out before me, to be eligible for the promotion.”

Or alternatively, ask follow-up questions about each area of performance in question, possibly with your own evidence points.

You: “You’re saying that I didn’t complete XYZ on time, but I’m confident I met those deadlines. If I can demonstrate that I did through my email date stamps, will that be sufficient for you to write a reference?”

As hard as it may sound, try to be calm and keep your tone light all the way through. The calmer and more logical the tone of voice, the more your new boss is likely to a) be impressed with your handling of the situation and b) may recognise what you’re up against and have your back.

I did this recently, to the point I looked a little dim. Luckily no one at work thinks I’m dim! Except maybe this man, he escalated and somewhat lost it over email with a bunch of people ccd in, it was pretty funny.

This is also my preference for dealing with this stuff.

Hi whoever will be able to give an authoritative answer, old boss is saying new boss should give the reference and vice versa - please can I confirm which way round this should be? Thanks etc etc.

Favouritism is so common in jobs and yet people don't see it for some reason. I was overlooked so many times and finally walked out of a job I loved due to not being a favourite. The 'chosen' ones were given interview questions and pretty much told that they would be given the posts. It stinks.

Do not secretly record. If you record, make sure you tell him. Recording without consent could amount to misconduct and then you’d be the one in trouble.