to think the government are on a hiding to nothing with their drive to get people back to work?

[molokoco]

On the Today Programme in Radio 4 this morning they had a segment where they were talking about "worklessness" in the UK and the number of unfilled vacancies and how the government wanted to push two large groups back into the work force the 18-24 year olds who are not working due to mental health issues and the over 50's who have dropped out of work in the past four years for a variety of reasons and who perhaps have the funds not to have to to work anymore.

They had a man on in his early 60's who was made redundant from what sounded like a highly paid business / finance type career in the city 4 years ago, he had initially applied for 100's of jobs over the next few years and was rejected he seemed to suspect due to his age. He work as a postman for a spell before he finally mentally came round to the idea of retirement. Obviously this man had the funds but so do a lot of the people retiring in their 50's either have that or their health is so poor they can no longer work while they wait endlessly for hospital appointments and treatment.

When I try to look at the kind of jobs that have the most vacancies in the UK the information I am seeing is things like hospitality, construction, manufacturing, agriculture workers and so on. It doesn't seem likely to me that someone who was previously in a high flying career but now feels pushed out due to ageism or someone with health issues is likely to want to take a job in any of those areas which likely involve some mix of heavy work, anti-social hours, low pay and a degree of precarity and perhaps not much in the way of long term prospects.

The man on the radio had applied for 100's of jobs within his field of experience and he would have kept working if he had landed one but it seems like well paid, jobs with good career prospects are still over subscribed with lots of people applying for that kind of work so employers will have their pick and ageism in recruitment is a known issue.

They had a Doctor on to discuss the mental health crisis in the young but he wasn't very coherent, he did mention about improving nutrition, exercise and prescribing gardening to people with mental health issues and suggested that when people go on the sick with poor mental health and spend a few weeks at home watching daytime TV then they will feel worse. I am sure he had a point but gardening isn't a substitute to getting proper mental heath treatment, it is part of that sure but I think young people need more than that and that the things that seem to be behind the rise in depression, anxiety and hopelessness need to be addressed more widely. I also think that while younger people in good health may be more able to do the kind of work in hospitality or construction where the vacancies actually are the problems with these jobs still remain that they are often hard, heavy jobs, they can be low paid, antisocial hours and with fewer prospects in the long term.

It is sad to see people, especially young people drop out of the workforce right at the time their lives should be starting or for older people to feel pushed out due to their age or poor health but a few tax breaks isn't going to make an ex-executive or ex-teacher suddenly want to take a job on a building site or as a chambre maid and a few gardening sessions isn't going to make up for the utter lack of mental health care and magically cure young people of their anxiety or despair in a world where a home and a family seem so far out of reach.

There is a difference in health between people in their 30s and people in their 60s.

Data from 2021 census.

People in their 60s are more likely to be in bad health.

This is also a post Brexit issue.

It's an ongoing pandemic issue (it's only the PHEIC that's ended)

Excess deaths continue higher (but the baseline is being recalibrated to our "new normal") - not just directly from acute covid, but also because covid increased rated of stroke, cardiac disease/failute, diabetes, various neuro conditions and more (including immune dysregulation which leads to infectious diseases being caught that bit more readily and lingering that bit longer - something anyone with a child in school will readily recognise. Plus long covid is barely understood but occurs after c.1:10 infections (infections, not people, so having people catch covid 2 or 3 times a year might not be a great thing for the workforce)

Covid arrived early 2020; Brexit transition ended December 2020. I'm not sure it will ever be possible definitively to weigh up covid (and it's global effects) v more localised Brexit issues. But I get that the "anything but covid" thought pattern remains strong

The issues are the same for the 18-24 and 50+ age groups. They don’t necessarily have to work full time - the younger group can live with their parents while the older group has inheritance and pensions. The only reason they work full time is if they want to - if it’s rewarding and beneficial.

Young people are being offered shitty zero hour contracts, or jobs where the employer is using legal loopholes to deprive them of their rights. They’re educated but are being offered unskilled jobs that don’t use their qualifications. Unsurprisingly they choose to not take these crap jobs and instead they live with their parents and do bits of part time work for spending money.

Older people have worked for years but then lose their jobs and because of ageism they can’t get another. So they get offered the same crap jobs. Unsurprisingly they also choose to opt out.

In both groups there are obviously some people who get offered decent jobs and choose to work, and others who are unhappily forced to take the crap jobs to make ends meet. But there are a huge amount who just go “Fuck this for a lark, if employers aren’t going to respect me and treat me decently then I won’t work”. And they don’t.

I was one of these people for many years. Highly qualified, desperate to work, but unable to get a decent job with good pay and progression opportunities. All I was getting offered were crap jobs where I was underpaid, undervalued and deprived of holiday pay and sick pay through legal loopholes. So I said “fuck this”, and I lived with my Dad and did a crap job for 15 hours a week just for pocket money. It wasn’t that I didn’t want to work - I did, desperately. I applied for loads of good jobs that I didn’t get. But I wasn’t going to put myself out for a shitty job that wouldn’t even give me sick pay. I’d rather be unemployed.

In other words, the problem is the shitty jobs and the shitty employers. The problem is the government which isn’t blocking the legal loopholes that let employers treat people like crap and deprive them of basic benefits like sick pay, holiday pay, pension contributions, maternity pay, etc. If the government wants people to work they need to force employers to behave respectfully and offer decent jobs.

@SerendipityJane im vaguely aware of people talking about how the west is having a “fall of Roman Empire” time but I must admit to being baffled by the comparison. If it’s not too much of a derail, is there a short explanation of why it’s similar? Thank you.

Again, I know quite a few people who are unable to work in this age group due to poor health/cancer and treatment/various other disabilities/diseases. I don’t know anyone in their 50s/early 60s who are looking after grandchildren. I have older friends who are looking after grandchildren but they are past retirement age. I also know some very fit people in their 70s and 80s.

It is a fact that people over 50 will start to get chronic health problems/serious illnesses. I did a bit of googling and 2.6 million was a figure quoted in this report and there are plenty of others to choose from.

https://ilcuk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Serious-illness-in-the-over-50s.pdf

It’s lovely for you that you are fit and healthy and so are all your friends. That is not the case for all of us.

And bring back affordable prices. People used to be able to attend night school to train for a different career at affordable prices. Now, even the concessionary rates are prohibitive for most of the people that technically qualify.

Technical qualifications have been bastardised .. see T levels as an example. The students I see dont like them. The placements aren’t great and irrelevant.

There aren’t enough apprenticeships for the demand.
Expectation of GCSE maths and English grade 4 for lower level apprenticeships when they don’t seem necessary. They could offer a literacy or numeracy test instead.

BTecs were great as they offered a step up approach from level 1 all the way to HNC/HND.

In terms of employers having unfilled posts.. they could respond to applicants. Eg dd had an interview for a cleaning job. But then they never bothered to get in touch with a start date.

Recruitment processes are multi level and faceless at the start. Unnecessary hurdles imo.

Yep agree.

I think maybe that there should be a resurgence of businesses providing or funding the training of their own employees. After all, they are the ones who want the trained employees.

The big benefit of this IMO would be that there would be little incentive for business to pay for credentials with no substance to them.

Maybe we need to look at job conditions, a manager who is kind and works as a team with employees rather than giving them stress.

There are student loans for level 3 courses. Advanced learner loans. Similar conditions to HE student loans.

Do agree that adult education classes should return properly. There are options for adults if they want to go to uni. Fewer options for vocational courses.

I’m in my 50s. I work full time and go to a lot of exercise classes and the gym. I’m slim and am fit. But I have serious health issues - cancer. My husband, early 60s, cycles 100km every few days and is fit. He also has cancer, and works part time. Most people my age whom I know do have health issues - they have had heart attacks, strokes, cancer, diabetes, fibromyalgia, brain tumours, osteoarthritis, knee replacements, etc. All of these people look fit and well - apart from the ones that died.

Absolutely this.

DH has a great technical job. He works in an industry that supports various sectors at the top end of society ( in money, not in usefulness) .The amount of money sloshing around on stuff that is entirely non essential is unbelievable. He often gets more expenses for his “lunch money” than I get paid in a day regardless of if he even has lunch. It’s crazy. He’s getting put up in fantastic hotels, whereas a few years back they got more basic accommodation or a Premier Inn. I mean great he’s getting a slice but it’s not filtering down to those that are working in the hotels or making the lunch. That’s all still minimum wage stuff.

The divide between rich and poor is colossal now.

Government also need to do something about the amount of preventable infections circulating if they want people in work and contributing to the economy. Long term sickness is being impacted by post viral issues and especially post covid sequelae (this can include cardiovascular issues, diabetes, ME/CFS, even mental health issues etc). And some older workers, many of whom are clinically vulnerable, are deliberately staying away from work due to covid risk too.
We need clean air standards for employers, vaccines widely and freely available (or cheaply available at least like the flu jab) and FFP2 masks to be supported/encouraged in society.

Hmm i remember being shouted down when i said some wanted the Covid rules to be permanent.

@Marchintospring you are absolutely right that the divide between rich and poor is colossal now. And the sad thing is that a lot of people don’t know that.

I live in an area where the cost of living crisis is evident and it’s something people talk about a lot because it has really impacted their lives. They talk about the COL ‘in this country’ because they think it’s affecting everybody, and it is not. The area where I work is awash with money. The shops and restaurants are full and people are still updating their houses and buying new cars. Those people are not affected by the COL at all.

The really awful thing is that a large proportion of people have not got their money through hard work though. Many got it through investments, inheritance or the kind of work that pays a disproportionately high salary. DH had a job like that in the city. He earned actually x 10 what I did as a teacher but we worked equally as hard. The link between hard work and pay is not there any more and people are beginning to realise that and realise it is not always worth pushing yourself in your job.

In my 50s. I did child friendly job when children were at primary.

Used to be senior in my former profession 20+. years. Can't even get an interview now. I don't mind doing something different but I want somethng fulfiling and well paid.

I don't know what the answer is.

To be fair, they could just lie. I've never heard of anybody asking for proof of your gcse results.

These v high sickness and "economically inactive" numbers have affected the UK far more.

As you say, its very hard to single out one issue, i suspect CV, Austerity, Brexit, low wages/hi housing costs and an appalling health service all contribute.

As someone on here wrote "We are all working very hard to stay poor" eventually that wears you down and if the opportunity comes along to pack it all in... the thought process is "Why not?"

Young people face around half their salary going in rent, high levels of debt, high taxation (pay back loans)
They ve lost opportunities which many older people had, work, travel & crappy pensions, no hope of even a state pension or claiming it when in decent health.

So why is it a surprise people are suffering from stress and burnout?

For many people, there is no hope of a better life & people are sick of wankers like the millionaires Hunt and Sunak (nr billionaire) preaching from upon high what we should do.... just fuck off.

You twats screw up and the tax payer bails you out..... Michelle Donelan.

Absolutely agree with you. Btecs were great, but people were snobby about them. As they were about NVQ's, even though they were valuable qualifications. Our obsession with university education has led to people who didnt go to universitybeing ignored totally. Over and over again we struggle with vocational education when other European countries have managed to do it more or less successfully for decades. Part of it is possibly because vocational education ( especially for the children of politicians and the Middle class) is for ' other peoples children' not their own. In Germany technical education has parity of esteem.

What do you mean by proper treatment for mental health issues? Lying on a couch, talking to someone with a PhD? Gardening and exercise are proper treatments, as is better nutrition and lifestyle choices.

I grew up in a big city and suffered a lot with mental health between 16 and 22. I had a soul-destroying job while my friends were all at uni. I made the decision to move away to somewhere smaller, less crowded and with access to lots of outdoor space. It changed my life completely. I walked an hour to and from work every day along a picturesque river. It set me up for the day and filled me with so much energy. If I’d stayed in the concrete jungle I grew up in, I would have continued to be miserable.

We’re early boomers, not dead yet. Our home is worth a fraction of our DCs’ homes and won’t make a significant difference to their retirement plans. If we don’t need care, hopefully whatever we leave will help our grandchildren.

How old are you?

Why do you have no qualifications?

What is your plan for life?

Spot on. And the more you have, the more you get.

Wealth means you can buy assets like property or shares. You then start earning money for doing very little. The more you get, the more you invest and the more you then get. You hide it away in dividends or subsidiary companies or off shore accounts so you pay bare minimum tax, therefore not contributing fairly to the overall health and well-being of society.

Meanwhile, the workers in those businesses that you own the shares of, are working long hours, NMW, little leave, work that shortens life and creates poor health and well-being. Leaves you less able to parent optimally. Leaves your kids less able to break free of poverty. You can’t save because you have barely enough to live on. Because the wealthy have bought up lots of the housing stock, house prices are artificially high, so you have no chance of buying your own house and your kids therefore won’t benefit from that. You have to service increasing rents to keep the wealthy in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg of why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Trickle down economics works wonderfully if you want the wealthy to gain wealth and the poor to remain poor. Unfettered capitalism just creates greed and suffering for many. I’m not a ‘socialist’ but I absolutely do want a fairer and more equal society.