to think the government are on a hiding to nothing with their drive to get people back to work?

[molokoco]

On the Today Programme in Radio 4 this morning they had a segment where they were talking about "worklessness" in the UK and the number of unfilled vacancies and how the government wanted to push two large groups back into the work force the 18-24 year olds who are not working due to mental health issues and the over 50's who have dropped out of work in the past four years for a variety of reasons and who perhaps have the funds not to have to to work anymore.

They had a man on in his early 60's who was made redundant from what sounded like a highly paid business / finance type career in the city 4 years ago, he had initially applied for 100's of jobs over the next few years and was rejected he seemed to suspect due to his age. He work as a postman for a spell before he finally mentally came round to the idea of retirement. Obviously this man had the funds but so do a lot of the people retiring in their 50's either have that or their health is so poor they can no longer work while they wait endlessly for hospital appointments and treatment.

When I try to look at the kind of jobs that have the most vacancies in the UK the information I am seeing is things like hospitality, construction, manufacturing, agriculture workers and so on. It doesn't seem likely to me that someone who was previously in a high flying career but now feels pushed out due to ageism or someone with health issues is likely to want to take a job in any of those areas which likely involve some mix of heavy work, anti-social hours, low pay and a degree of precarity and perhaps not much in the way of long term prospects.

The man on the radio had applied for 100's of jobs within his field of experience and he would have kept working if he had landed one but it seems like well paid, jobs with good career prospects are still over subscribed with lots of people applying for that kind of work so employers will have their pick and ageism in recruitment is a known issue.

They had a Doctor on to discuss the mental health crisis in the young but he wasn't very coherent, he did mention about improving nutrition, exercise and prescribing gardening to people with mental health issues and suggested that when people go on the sick with poor mental health and spend a few weeks at home watching daytime TV then they will feel worse. I am sure he had a point but gardening isn't a substitute to getting proper mental heath treatment, it is part of that sure but I think young people need more than that and that the things that seem to be behind the rise in depression, anxiety and hopelessness need to be addressed more widely. I also think that while younger people in good health may be more able to do the kind of work in hospitality or construction where the vacancies actually are the problems with these jobs still remain that they are often hard, heavy jobs, they can be low paid, antisocial hours and with fewer prospects in the long term.

It is sad to see people, especially young people drop out of the workforce right at the time their lives should be starting or for older people to feel pushed out due to their age or poor health but a few tax breaks isn't going to make an ex-executive or ex-teacher suddenly want to take a job on a building site or as a chambre maid and a few gardening sessions isn't going to make up for the utter lack of mental health care and magically cure young people of their anxiety or despair in a world where a home and a family seem so far out of reach.

i listened to the programme and heard that 18 to 24 year olds had a really good work ethic, this was after the man of 61 who couldnt find work. i didnt hear/listen to any more about young people.

That may or not be true but i was answering the point that work doesn't pay.

& the point is that that kid living at home, is still better off working, by a factor of 5.

Even if you add in what a single person can get in rent support, living in an HMO, work still pays considerably more.

But you haven't added that in!! And given that housing costs are probably the biggest financial burden, that's pretty damn significant!

Yes but then they’re working aren’t they? Giving up 40 hours of their lives a week to do something that they may not dislike but would probably rather do something else. This in itself is a benefit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/rishi-sunak-benefits-national-insurance-b2510044.html

I've been unemployed for 7 months, come from a senior management background on a good salary. I took redundancy and have likewise found it near impossible to find similar employment despite applying for lots of jobs and having 20+ years in my particular profession. I'm 45. Mind you, I'm trying to break into the charitable sector, which has been an eye opener. This sector seems particularly difficult to move into. So now I'm going back to my old sector as a self employed consultant. No way did I think it would be this hard to find a job in a sector that doesn’t offer fantastic pay.

At dh's workplace I think they're a fraction away from someone doing them for age discrimination. It's a subsidiary of a large German manufacturing company. Career progression there and job opportunities are almost always filled with much younger people and if two people apply for the same job, it invariably goes to the younger one - youth is seen as innovative, dynamic, enthusiastic. But they're missing out on the people who know and understand people and relationships, have the confidence to stand their ground when necessary and also have some great ideas about how processes and systems need to change to improve things. They even call this programme of progression "Young Subsidiary". Meanwhile, all the older people's progression (such as dh's, who is 54) has completely stagnated. Most are now just waiting out retirement with no motivation, or support, to do anything else.

Interesting thread as at 55 I'm currently signed off and claiming UC. My DP died suddenly two years ago. I tried to continue running my bricks and mortar retail business solo but the COL crisis saw it nosedive. Also, I found it hard to be in it with constant reminders of my loss. Bought stock on credit leading to current debt of around 10 grand. Finally woke up and smelled the economic coffee just before Christmas and decided to wind up.

Planned to re-locate and re-group, then got a section 21 as my landlord needs to sell. At the same time both elderly parents went into major health crises - as an only child you can guess where this is going.

Current plan is to move in with my Dad as his physical health is declining - Step Mum is in hospital and has been for two months - I'm shuttling between my house, my ex business premises, Dad's house and the hospital every other day, advocating and caring.

UC have placed me as suitable for WRAG temporarily and the message is that my declining mental health will be eventually fixed by work - possibly caring, as my IT skills are basic and I is old......

I'm an expert at living frugally and at least I'll have a roof over my head and may get to keep my cat.

I'm not opposed to working but if I could have five minutes to catch my breath, that would be nice. I hate the feeling that I'm a "drain" on society and resources, and ultimately a failure, but my life has been a series of unfortunate events, and my customary "resilience" is a little depleted.

My son is approaching 30. He's bright but not academic, and is working in landscape gardening. Our area has a plethora of the well heeled with second homes and the company he works for is doing well, so thank God he's secure for now. His partner, similar age, worked hard in hospitality and retail for years - in the last year she's developed two debilitating chronic health conditions at odds with each other treatment wise and has finally had to give up work, but they will manage with a little extra support.

When I left my abusive ExH at 42 and had to start from scratch I was shocked then at the job market. I got jobs, but had to dumb down my CV and was told then by the agencies that my age was against me. I'm dreading to think how it will be when I'm stable enough to stick my head above that parapet again.

Sure I've made bad decisions but most were driven by the expectation that I would focus on family and caring responsibilities first. DP and I were both only children. He remained childless, my one was entering adulthood when we met. However we had six elderly parents between us. Since 2016 I've cared for his Mum with Alzheimers until she had to go into a home then immediately my Mum was diagnosed with terminal cancer and died in 2020.

I don't know why I'm waffling on about all this but maybe it's because there are thousands of me flailing about in this "brave new world" not wanting to be part of the problem but bamboozled by the complexity of it, which might explain some of the higher numbers of over 50s out of the workforce for a myriad of reasons incompatible with career consistency in later life. Maybe we're just too tired and sad to keep up.

@GoodnightAdeline exactly!

And this echoes my earlier post. If I'm going to be living a pretty meagre existence, I'd rather be living it with no demands on how i spend my time, than living that meagre existence with almost 40 hours of the week doing something I might not want to be doing, having expectations and targets set by someone else. Oh and factor in the time and costs of getting to and from that job.

It comes down to money at the end of the day because money gives a person greater choice and control over their life. If having a job made someone significantly better off than not having one, I reckon overnight we'd see a lot of job vacancies filled. And by significant I mean not just money to pay the rent, the bills, the travel to work, I mean money to spend on all the other things that make life worth living. Ultimately if someone can have the things they want - a social life, phone, laptop, take outs - without working, and they aren't going to afford any more than those things if they do work, where the hell is the incentive to get out of bed and spend 9-5 five days a week doing something you might not wish to do?

I hate the fact that you are being made to feel a drain on society’s resources when it is clear that you are someone who has contributed, and will continue to contribute, a great deal in terms of unpaid caring for elderly relatives.

If one of your parents is claiming a disability benefit or would qualify for Attendance Allowance then get that in place. you can then officially be classed as a carer for UC and have no work commitments and an extra £180 a month on your claim.

The punitive approach is just all wrong and reflects the gov view that those who aren’t rich are idle and scroungers. If you want young people to have better MH spend some money on supporting and educating them. If YP are not able to attend school due to unmet SEN and MH needs they’re not going to suddenly flourish at 18. And all the statistics show that YP are not flourishing and a lot of that is due to mismanagement and underfunding of the pandemic, education, camhs, university education. I left uni virtually debt free, went into a secure job, bought a house in mid 20s with a reasonable mortgage and had enough for holidays, going out etc.nhs services like dentist available. it would not be possible now even with a good profession so no wonder YP are miserable!

@BungleandGeorge of course there needs to be support - lots of it. And a massive programme of building affordable homes and taxing the shit out of second home owners.

And it's a combination of incentives and also disincentives for people to choose not to work if they're capable of it.

But there’s already huge incentives to work? Benefits have been largely removed for YP and the current system is extremely punitive. If people are not able to work they really need to spend a lot more effort understanding why

So sorry you have been through all that and still have so much uncertainty. It must be really hard. This is exactly why we have a benefit system. So that we look after each other when the chips are down. Any one of us could be in a position of needing help and support. We are all only a few major life events away from losing financial security and/or our physical/mental health.

I hope your situation becomes easier soon but please don’t feel anything about receiving some benefits. That’s what they are for.

And better perinatal and infant well-being support. Those early years are so important for the health and well being of human beings. Supporting parents at this stage is crucial.

@BungleandGeorge huge incentives to work? Are you kidding?

@Cordeliacordyline absolutely, children are not prioritised at any stage these days. And the upshot is less adults able to work because they’re picking up the pieces of lack of support

Yeah, I'd like to know what these huge incentives are too.

It's not housing, single people cannot afford decent housing unless they are earning £100k plus, which for a young person is unlikely, it's not holidays or leisure activities if the young person is on NMW or slightly above (which is likely) as these are also unaffordable, so what is the incentive?

I’m sure someone who knows can chip in but benefits are far less for young people than if they were working and that’s when they’ve jumped through every hoop and barrier. Working in a stable job (not zero hours) with support and prospects and access to a mortgage and affordable housing is far better.

But an apprentice is the trade equivalent of the academic “going to uni” where people are learning skills for the future.

@BungleandGeorge well you posted it so it's a bit odd to ask for 'someone who knows' to chip in and provide evidence for what you wrote!

Social media and the fact that young people are constantly bombarded with content telling them that every feeling they have = a diagnosis of something is playing a huge part in the number of young people being out of work in my opinion.

This is so true. Millions of young people wasting 3-4 years getting deep in debt to gain an irrelevant degree, often in an area where school-leavers used to learn the skills while working. I can’t understand why successive governments haven’t taken any effective action.

I think the world of work has changed so much in the last 30 years. Employers want highly specialized roles, working to maximum capacity. Zero slack and often pushing constantly to cover additional workloads, because theres no give in the system any more when someone is sick or has left. Recruitment in my sector seems to now factor in 6 months backfilling roles as standard before a new hire. Labeling it as development opportunities.
Teams that would once have had periods of planning and recovery time in between high stress months, are now expected to give 120% all the time just to get the basics covered and pay hasn’t kept up the pace.
Those of us who have been in the workforce for 30 plus years will be feeling the pressure and not necessarily the rewards we once enjoyed in return.

Yes, it's human nature, but the only way it works is because someone is supporting these entitled kids to live, be it parents, or the state.

If that weren't the case I am quite sure they would be out looking for work very quickly.