to think the government are on a hiding to nothing with their drive to get people back to work?

[molokoco]

On the Today Programme in Radio 4 this morning they had a segment where they were talking about "worklessness" in the UK and the number of unfilled vacancies and how the government wanted to push two large groups back into the work force the 18-24 year olds who are not working due to mental health issues and the over 50's who have dropped out of work in the past four years for a variety of reasons and who perhaps have the funds not to have to to work anymore.

They had a man on in his early 60's who was made redundant from what sounded like a highly paid business / finance type career in the city 4 years ago, he had initially applied for 100's of jobs over the next few years and was rejected he seemed to suspect due to his age. He work as a postman for a spell before he finally mentally came round to the idea of retirement. Obviously this man had the funds but so do a lot of the people retiring in their 50's either have that or their health is so poor they can no longer work while they wait endlessly for hospital appointments and treatment.

When I try to look at the kind of jobs that have the most vacancies in the UK the information I am seeing is things like hospitality, construction, manufacturing, agriculture workers and so on. It doesn't seem likely to me that someone who was previously in a high flying career but now feels pushed out due to ageism or someone with health issues is likely to want to take a job in any of those areas which likely involve some mix of heavy work, anti-social hours, low pay and a degree of precarity and perhaps not much in the way of long term prospects.

The man on the radio had applied for 100's of jobs within his field of experience and he would have kept working if he had landed one but it seems like well paid, jobs with good career prospects are still over subscribed with lots of people applying for that kind of work so employers will have their pick and ageism in recruitment is a known issue.

They had a Doctor on to discuss the mental health crisis in the young but he wasn't very coherent, he did mention about improving nutrition, exercise and prescribing gardening to people with mental health issues and suggested that when people go on the sick with poor mental health and spend a few weeks at home watching daytime TV then they will feel worse. I am sure he had a point but gardening isn't a substitute to getting proper mental heath treatment, it is part of that sure but I think young people need more than that and that the things that seem to be behind the rise in depression, anxiety and hopelessness need to be addressed more widely. I also think that while younger people in good health may be more able to do the kind of work in hospitality or construction where the vacancies actually are the problems with these jobs still remain that they are often hard, heavy jobs, they can be low paid, antisocial hours and with fewer prospects in the long term.

It is sad to see people, especially young people drop out of the workforce right at the time their lives should be starting or for older people to feel pushed out due to their age or poor health but a few tax breaks isn't going to make an ex-executive or ex-teacher suddenly want to take a job on a building site or as a chambre maid and a few gardening sessions isn't going to make up for the utter lack of mental health care and magically cure young people of their anxiety or despair in a world where a home and a family seem so far out of reach.

Agree with this. I love my job. It is commensurate with my qualifications, flexible and interesting. But everything else is a humongous PITA. I have to book a desk on an app if want to go into work. I go in on the bus now because I also had to book a parking space. A middle layer of management was deleted, which not only meant a route to progression disappeared but a load more admin has not only gone downwards but a shit load of other responsibilities have gone upwards. This means that my manager is so overworked she just isn't getting the things done that I need her to do so that I can get my job done. Spending half my time constantly double checking that things have been done when often they haven't been. My DS is a Young leader in Cubs. He seems to have a real way with children. He would like to go into teaching. My heart sinks to be honest at what kind of a shitshow his working conditions would be like. I've told him he should see teaching as a passport out of here if he wants to do it.

But those aren't the people leaving the workforce.

Its teachers, AHPs, professional people... usually because of high stress levels or redundancy.

I know a Nurse, 2 years into her job, bottom of band 5, her stress levels are through the roof, she is constantly being harassed by managers above her to free up bed space, bullied by patients family members, works almost every evening and has had to stop her hobby of running.

I tell her to leave and do something else, she is only 25, as it will only get worse.

Oh and when she did get a pay rise, most of it went on higher car park charges, extra pension and more student loan repayments.

This country hasn't a clue how to get the best out of staff.

In my job role I see a lot of middle aged people who seem to have moved back in with their elderly parent, particularly perhaps after a divorce. The parent is often inform so the adult person acts as a carer, they kind of pool resources so the person will have Universal credit with carers element, older person will have pension, disability benefits, private pension etc, house usually paid for. They manage, maybe not a lot to manage on but when you've only got bills and food for two it's doable. The older person seems to supplement the adult child in return for a bit of help. It seems to be quite a common set up. Or you get middle aged women who have never really left home , never had a well paid job or been able to leave home looking after elderly parents. they have no work commitments on UC as they are cares. I do a lot of home visits to older people and there always seems to be an adult son lurking somewhere in the house who lives there.

I'm 56 no mortgage or debt and just work 2 hours a day. We have enough money to live on.
I don't want to work anymore hours

I think this is what happens.
Dd went to a “job fair” run by dwp. She eagerly went. Would’ve done anything. Had interviews following for jobs that didn’t exist. What’s the point?! Ridiculous waste of time and effort.
What was good though was the offer of work experience by dwp.

Well indeed. And the wealthiest people are quite happy to kick back and enjoy tons of leisure time whist their stocks and shares and rent come gushing in. The Government aren’t telling them to get a NMW job!

There are schemes that work
kickstart as pp mentioned.

But they don’t run for long enough. They disappear.

Govt ran a cyber security course. If you got through part 1 then employers could offer you a job during part 2. Sounds great. But now closed. And the info is hidden. You have to know to look.

Finding our what exists isnt easy. Should all be in one place imo.

''@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

The thing that astonishes me is that so many people I know in interesting, well paid jobs are made miserable by fighting constant battles with entirely unnecessary things.
They get into work with a lot to do and the computers take an hour to update.
The employer moves everyone to hot desking and gives them nowhere to store their files.
There is nowhere quiet to work because they’re moved to an open plan office that mixes people whose work involves phone calls and people whose work requires concentration.
The lights are put onto an energy saving mode where they switch off if you don’t move around every 10 minutes. ''

Exactly.

I should added in my previous post that I prefer working from home because working for a charity our 'office' is a small room with no set desk and no computers provided (so you need to bring a laptop all the time). There is one loo for everyone. The wi-fi is atrocious and it is incredibly noisy.

I do a lot of work updating websites, designing content and copywriting so I need a quiet environment and a good internet connection. My home internet connection is vastly more reliable and faster than anything at work.

A lot of people keep getting covid and any bug that goes around from this work environment and we have high sickness levels.

Frankly being in the office actually prevents me from doing the job they pay me to do...

@Cordeliacordyline which is exactly why the NMW ought to be significantly higher. There should be a significant financial advantage to working as opposed to choosing not to work. At the end of the day most of us would probably prefer to not have to work. If there isn't a big enough advantage, some people will choose not to - and probably realise too late that they're screwed in their old age without their own pension provisions

It's a combination of things.

Education system isn't training people in the skills we need, too much emphasis on a academic achievement (but not enough on useful aspects that lead to jobs) and complete neglect of trades.

Underfunded NHS means long waiting times and people off sick

Older people retired early due to generous pension

Young people don't need to work due to generous financial support from parents

Corporate greed and government cuts mean low paid jobs increasingly stressful and insecure

Rewards of work not clear cut as housing too expensive

Benefits system is too generous relative to work, which keeps wages low, and penalises people who work in lower paid jobs or work more hours. Benefits should be a safety net not a subsidy for low wages for full time working able bodied adults

Retraining opportunities for adults not accessible or available at all

Bureaucracy means certificates and qualifications needed for jobs where relevant experience should suffice

Mental health problems and anxiety are currently trendy rather than stigmatised (obviously a good thing to an extent but this has gone much too far now, the majority of undergraduates now need special allowances to be able to sit exams, pandering to this is not helpful long term)

Too much screen time and social media for adults and children breaking down normal human behaviour and interaction

Poor morale and resentment caused by increasingly unequal society

Ultimately though, people (apart from a small number of genuinely unable) will work if they have to so people not working is because they don't need the money. Fair enough and I am always surprised how many people do work long hours in stressful jobs when they could just cut their hours and spend less.

The narrative seems to swing wildly between "Help! AI is about to take all our jobs! Everyone panic!" And "Help! Nobody wants to bloody work anymore, the lazy feckless gobshites!" It's enough to make you seasick tbh.

I'm sorry to hear that, I had it for about 2 years, nothing for first 18 months, couldn't even read or write a full sentence because it affected my brain so badly, gradually started to get a bit better but only to a point. Bizarrely in the end it was my friend giving me a cold that weirdly seemed to push the last dregs of it out of my system and my heart and breathing are back to normal, although I still get fatigued at times I don't spend weeks in bed. It's strange how it affects people so differently. There's a good group on Facebook where people have found things/people/clinics that have actually helped, so worth a look as it seems to range from disbelieving GPs to sympathetic GPs to proactively helpful GPs. The latter is a lot rarer and seems to be pushed by GPs who have suffered with it themselves. Plus it seems to be a lot more researched now than in the earlier days. Good luck.

@PrincessTeaSet generous pension? We have one of the worst pensions in the developed world!
Oh what I'd have given to have a pension holiday when my kids were small. I paid a third of my wages for 35 years- non negotiable.

Your first point resulted in T levels. Which don’t seem to be going well. Courses shut due , students leaving and work placements not relevant or just tick boxing.

I think employers should accept that in the first year their new employees require bespoke training and mentoring by them! Young people do not leave education and are work ready!

Even experiences new staff require adjustment to get into the new employers culture and work processes.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

The thing that astonishes me is that so many people I know in interesting, well paid jobs are made miserable by fighting constant battles with entirely unnecessary things.
They get into work with a lot to do and the computers take an hour to update.
The employer moves everyone to hot desking and gives them nowhere to store their files.
There is nowhere quiet to work because they’re moved to an open plan office that mixes people whose work involves phone calls and people whose work requires concentration.
The lights are put onto an energy saving mode where they switch off if you don’t move around every 10 minutes

This. My company massively cut back on office space post the pandemic and there aren’t enough desks for everyone. So if you’re not at your desk by about 8am you have to sit in a pod where there aren’t enough points to plug in and there are five people jammed onto a small space trying to do work that requires concentration with people walking past talking loudly on the phone. There are constant IT issues, not enough headphones for people to conduct video calls without disrupting others and the chatter from junior staff is such that no one else can focus. It’s literally impossible to do high quality written work that requires concentration.

And yet they still mither us about choosing not to work in the office and have started monitoring our office hours and sending passive aggressive emails about working culture being improved by attendance. Which is blatantly untrue. It’s so much harder to work in these circumstances than being at home in peace with a working computer and cracking on quietly.

I’m so sick of the gaslighting that companies are giving their employees about this. Either you provide adequate working conditions for your staff or you accept that they will choose to locate themselves in an environment which allows them to optimise the way they work. You can’t have it both ways.

Absolutely mental. You have my sympathy. And I’m sure if they asked you what you needed to allow you to work more efficiently, you would give them a clear answer. But they don’t.

DH recalls a conversation with someone he was trying to tempt to join his department.
‘Will I have my own office?’
‘Yes’
’Will it have a window?’
’Yes of course!’
’Onto the actual outside?’
Basically her department had all been moved to a new building where not all the rooms had windows; those that did were onto an atrium which was noisy, hot and artificially lit and staff found it unbearably airless and impossible to work in. But if the university ever noticed that their best people were leaving they will have thought it was very strange, after all they had just given them a state of the art new building.

Back when I started my old job 20 years ago we were all sent information about the health and safety importance of suitably ergonomic office furniture, appropriate keyboards, chairs, monitor height, and encouraged to request what we needed. Now I keep hearing about people hot desking either not being allowed furniture that suits them or having to waste time at the start of each workday adjusting seats and propping monitors and keyboards up on piles of books to get to a comfortable working height. Madness.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

Sounds horribly familiar.

The latest initiative at our place is a ridiculous desk booking system whereby you "book" the right to have a working computer ahead of time using a shit piece of software that doesn't work properly. Except that inevitably there's a bunfight for desks and if you don't remember to book at the exact time the bookings go live for the week you don't get a desk at all and then a) can't work properly and b) get shamed publicly by the ops manager for not being quick enough on the draw in using the system (when you've usually got a million more urgent things to worry about).

It doesn't work for me because my workload is such that I am often working at home from about 6.30am: if a client unilaterally puts a call into my diary at 8am I can't take the risk of being in transit at that time and its easier just to stay put, do the call at home and commute in afterwards but by then it's too late to take the booked desk. So booking a desk which I can't get to ahead of time serves no purpose at all other than to piss other people off if I've booked a desk which they can't use because its booked and I can't get to.

It's all petty stupid office shit which no one died from. But what severely pisses me off is that this is invariably presented to us as examples of our poor time management and organisation when what it really boils down to is them being too tight to provide us with the tools we need to do the job properly.

I think businesses should try to make a point of creating roles for young people. But there are a lot of things standing in the way. Yes, some jobs just aren't suitable for young people, but working regulations mean more and more it's not worthwhile, or even possible, to get a teen still at school in a role. And in many cases they are completely capable. There is a general tendency to infantalize teenagers. Yes, they aren't done yet, but they have a lot of capabilities and having real responsibility is a big part of what develops maturity.

I run a library and have been trying to convince upper management to create a job suitable for students with regular evening and weekend hours. Basically doing the library clerk job. Any bright 16 year old who likes books could do it, and there are always several clerks on a shift so there would be support.

My other clerks are not keen and I think in part it's because they don't see their own job clearly. It's not a job for anyone but it's mainly temperament and interests that makes a good clerk. Their view seems to be that there are a lot of dodgy people who come to libraries, (which is undoubtedly true, but they come to the other places teens work as well,) there is access to sensitive info (less tan the medical office I worked in as a teen,) and it's too hard for teenagers technically (no, they are probably better at that stuff than the staff I have now.).

They don't seem to be able to realize that it would be a way to develop long term employees with good skills, who wouldn't have to be paying for courses to get those skills, and who would be able to continue to live in their (small and rather declining) home town.

I'm not convinced this is mainly about work being unattractive, tbh.

It's more true for the older age group. If they have other things like savings and pensions to support themselves, the trade-offs for working or not are differernt.

But young people? I just don't think employers are that much more shitty now than in previous generations, and there have often been times when remuneration was crap as well. Certainly if we look back over the past 200 years there have been times when working conditions and prospects for the future have been really utterly shit, and people still worked.

I am also not convinced that the basic social conditions now are so much more mentally taxing that they have caused a unique mental health crisis in the young. There have been other times that have been worse, and people still worked.

(And yes, there have always been some people so mentally ill they couldn't work, but that isn't the issue here, it's that there is suddenly this other cohort.)

Tbh, I think at least part of the issue is this younger group has the idea that other people, like their parents, or society, should support them if they don't feel like they are up to working. And they seem to be unaware that many people have periods of time where they don't feel that well, are stressed, feel they can't manage, are anxious, and that none of this means they should just be supported by others.

@TempestTost - that would have been my dream job as a student to the point I’d have accepted lower wages to work in a field I had an interest in.

When l started working in the 80’s l never had appraisals. We had an hour long lunch and knocked off at 4:30. I got pay rise after pay rise. Company car everything. I was 26 and ditsy. No one cared as long as l did the job.

This is a great idea! I’d say get in touch with your local college around about Easter to recruit for the summer. It could even be work experience type thing. Then offer a post to the young person who likes it.

I see quite a few teens who would like this sort of role.

Not read the replies yet but I'd like to see more focus on getting non-contributors to start contributing rather than just taking. Obv those that can but choose not to. The focus is always on further taxing those who already pay loads and are often creating jobs for others/driving industry and the economy.

But young people? I just don't think employers are that much more shitty now than in previous generations, and there have often been times when remuneration was crap as well. Certainly if we look back over the past 200 years there have been times when working conditions and prospects for the future have been really utterly shit, and people still worked.
People nowadays have higher expectations. They’re no longer willing to tug their forelocks and put up with shit treatment from employers as they did in past generations. They have more of a sense of self worth and more alternatives to working a 9-5 job. Also a lot of them have spent 50-60k on a degree so they expect a better job as a result. If they hadn’t gone to uni they might have been more willing to accept a lesser job. So I still say the problem is shit jobs and shit employers - people won’t stand for it any more, if they can’t get a decent job they will just opt out of the rat race completely.

Yes, it’s employers that are shot.

Do the Bradford scale and performance management change anything? I mean really really change things?

No

I feel employees have returned to life of The Ragged Trouser Philanthropists.

All the shit about hot deskimg, gig economy, zero hours, shit wages etc needs to stop. Employees are human beings and need to be treated is such. Why does almost every institution think they have crap employees who are trying to skive all the time or be bone idle? Most people aren’t like that. How about compassionate employment?