If you are not reducing your intake of UPF…

[maybein2022]

… with all the media attention on UPF at the moment and so much research coming out about it. Interested to know. If you’re NOT reducing your intake of it, is it because you’re not able to (finances/accessibility/time), because you don’t want to or don’t think it’s a problem, you and/or your kids are neurodivergent and a lot of ‘safe’ foods are UPF or other reasons.

YANBU: I am reducing mine/my family’s intake
YABU: I am not for reasons listed above (or other reasons)

Had pancreatic cancer - went absolutely nuts when it came to my diet to the point where it was forensic.

When I met my oncologist his advice was 80/20 for everything. I live by that and use common sense - should we eat UPF every single day? No. Have a balanced diet and allow yourself to have a treat here and there.

It's not rocket science that buying Asdas essentials cottage pie isn't the best dietary choice, most people know this and don't need the scaremongering.

But that's nothing to do with the UPF bogeyman. Obesity is about calories. If you drink 250ml of nasty UPF orange juice from concentrate or 250ml of lovely non-UPF orange juice not from concentrate, that's the same contribution to your daily calorie intake. Ditto for 100g of artisan sourdough with 20g of hand-churned butter versus 100g of Kingsmill with 20g of Flora.

Nothing has changed with UPF, it's just that the hype machine has found a new way to package up stories saying "Your food is killing you" because "Your huge portions of calorie-rich food and lack of exercise are killing you" is a lot harder to sell. I can guarantee you that within a couple of years there will be companies gaming the definition of ultra-processed (probably by paying Chris van Tullegen a lot of money) so that their high-fat stuff doesn't count as UPF because it has 0.1% organic lemon juice or some such bollocks.

The sentence I quoted was not strictly to do with UPFs.

I know that obesity is caused by excess calories and that you may consume excessive amounts of food through whole foods or UPFs.

My opinion is that UPFs are much, much easier to consume in excess than whole foods, even with all else being equal. For the reasons already listed.

They don't have to be any worse than that, that's bad enough for people who struggle with weight control.

I believe that the unnatural ease with which UPFs are digested are not good for humans, and the hormonal spikes resulting from the consumption and rapid absorption of UPFs increase the likelihood of metabolic disease and promote obesity which also increases the risk of quite a lot of diseases. And that's without even considering the lack of beneficial elements of a diet that are missing if people consume largely highly processed foods.

While weight loss and gain may technically be possible with any food, we are seeing in real time that it is absolutely not easy to lose weight when surrounded by UPFs.

It's really not about "selling" what is already widely accepted knowledge. People are really, really struggling to lose weight. Even people who really want to. And I think in order to understand what's going on, we need a holistic approach, and that includes looking at our modern food environment and increasing peoples' understanding of how food quality, ingredients and processing methods actually do matter. And it's not just obviously "unhealthy" foods that could be contributing to peoples' struggles to maintain good health.

That's fair. We eat convenience foods/UPFs because they are easy, cheap, and "good enough" nutritionally. And being easy to eat perhaps makes it more likely that we will have another slice of Domino's than another slice of artisan sourdough bruschetta with home-chopped tomatoes.

But also, these foods have a much longer shelf life. I think that's a crucial point, and not necessarily negative. It reduces food waste (a good thing, I'm told) and it also allows for much more flexibility in time management for the people who buy the food (i.e. women mostly).

I am concerned about the messaging that unless you are taking your bicycle to the local food market every two days and eating only fresh seasonal produce, you are somehow failing yourself, your family, the nation ("all that money the NHS is going to have to spend to fix your heart") and the planet. To feed a family of four for a week requires at least 50,000 kcal of food, and most people would prefer to spend as little time as possible doing that. I know I do.

Nothing has changed with UPF, it's just that the hype machine has found a new way to package up stories saying "Your food is killing you" because "Your huge portions of calorie-rich food and lack of exercise are killing you" is a lot harder to sell. I can guarantee you that within a couple of years there will be companies gaming the definition of ultra-processed (probably by paying Chris van Tullegen a lot of money) so that their high-fat stuff doesn't count as UPF because it has 0.1% organic lemon juice or some such bollocks.

this kind of misinformation is what does real harm to the debate around upf. Instead of sticking to the facts, to the science, you're making up hypothetical situations like "probably paying xxx scientist a lot of money to peddle lies" and words like "I guarantee..." ( you're talented, with your predictive powers you should do the lottery!) when that is not the actual situation, it's your personal take on things because of your personal axe that you're grinding.

why not just stick to accurate information and not conflate it by adding embellishments to bolster your point.

there are plenty of scientists out there who stick their head above the parapet in the interests of the science. They aren't being sponsored by the Food Industry, their scientific goal is to inform our society about the actions and choices that for-profit Corporates make that are harmful so people can make their own choices. We can choose to take on board the information or we can ignore it and add to conspiracy theories in the web if we want. The food industry gets away with a lot, despite legislative controls - and guidelines that many ignore when it doesn't suit them eg traffic light system (I have put back an item when I see Red fat, Red saturated fat Amber salt Red sugar so they do a good job in many cases) - and they're supported by government because their products create revenue and taxes.

While weight loss and gain may technically be possible with any food, we are seeing in real time that it is absolutely not easy to lose weight when surrounded by UPFs.

the nature of upf is that eating it is easier, it takes away the need for humans to bite and chew (digestion should start in the mouth). For example eating an apple takes more to bite off a piece of it, chew it, swallow it and digest it. A glass of apple juice or eating some apple purée takes away most of that process. Similarly a piece of meat v a burger. It doesn't satisfy the hunger.

Im not saying apple juice or puree are bad foods, but it illustrates the point. Modern manufactured food takes away that process.

it's all about balance, there's no need to completely eliminate every last scrap of foods classed as UP, reducing daily consumption, making substitutions where practical, is heading in the right direction, which many people are doing because of the awareness. Very similar to when the true impact of smoking because widely visible through science. My grandparents were told if you have a cough, have a cigarette it's good for you 😱

Not sure exactly what counts as UPF. I'd like to cook more but sometimes all we have time to do is open a can of beans and butter bread.

When I think back to my childhood food I think of Frey bentos pies in a tin, Brains faggots (both of which I hated) Findus savoury pancakes, Angel Delight, Mr Kipling cakes, Gold bars and Penguins. For sure I try to cook from scratch most of the time and try to have some organic now, but this is facilitated by having the time and financial resources. I do worry about what we, and others, are doing to ourselves with our food however I also see that many people are time and cash poor right now so it’s really hard.
For this reason I would like to see big supermarkets being pushed into providing better quality food, this would help people more in my opinion. A huge difference for us was adding a relatively cheap but very effective water filter to our kitchen tap and shower and banning fizzy drinks in the week. We also look closely at what is in all toiletries and cleaning products. I’m agreeing with all the other posters who say exercise is also key. So yes we need to reduce UPF but I applaud all the hard working parents who manage to provide healthy food for their families most or even some of the time.

But a lot of those people, who eat junk because it is cheap and haven't the headspace/education to think about what they are eating as they are just trying to survive are not the ones that will be listening to Dr Xand or buying the Zoe stuff. Worried well will - as someone else has said upthread.

Moderating is key though. I grit my teeth when I read posts from parents who are really quite puritanical about UPFs. It’s a disaster waiting to happen, as a friend’s teen demonstrated when he started high school and guzzles fizzy drink now he can buy his own lunch. (Previously banned from drinking any of it) This is mild though when you think of how many young people are in the grips of eating disorders.

I don’t know anyone who was educated to avoid processed food in childhood who “guzzled” crap food as a result, quite the opposite.

In fact I’d say the vast majority of people who “guzzle” crap ate it in childhood, making it a hard habit to break.

The third largest cause of cancer in the US is being overweight/obese.
4-8% of cancer is linked to obesity.

The ailments associated with being overweight/obese don’t only hit you in old age, they can appear at any time eg - diabetes, fatty liver, gall bladder disease, heart disease, cancer etc. These are not necessarily geriatric diseases, they tend to come on in middle age, for some even earlier.

in scientific terms, correlation (as opposed to causation) describes the likelihood of one thing having an effect or effects on another.

Correlation tells us precisely nothing about the likelihood of there being a causative relationship. It tells us we should investigate further to discover whether there is any causation.

The displacement of high nutritional value food by essentially junk is fairly obviously causative of obesity and all the problems associated with obesity, as concluded by the BMJ study. Evidence of harm caused by consumption of the “unnatural” ingredients in processed food is for the most part weak, as concluded by the same study.

It’s almost as though pointing to obesity itself as being the root cause of a good deal of poor health is no longer allowed. We have to point to the food as the direct cause of the poor health, not as the cause of the obesity.

There are posts on here every day from people saying they and their children “eat healthily and cook from scratch” but they can’t understand why they are overweight. With the exception of some people with metabolic disorders it’s all down to portion size, with the wrong balance between broccoli and Asda cottage pie.

People like being told things aren't their fault and I believe that's why this new fad has taken roots.

Oh poor you, you're not fat because you eat too much it's those rascal big food companies using soya lecithin and seed oils.

Bullshit. I could happily sit down and eat a kilogram of mini eggs a day but I don't because I use a bit of restraint.

the nature of upf is that eating it is easier, it takes away the need for humans to bite and chew (digestion should start in the mouth). For example eating an apple takes more to bite off a piece of it, chew it, swallow it and digest it. A glass of apple juice or eating some apple purée takes away most of that process. Similarly a piece of meat v a burger. It doesn't satisfy the hunger.

Totally agree with this. Eat real food.

But adding half a jar of Aldi pesto sauce to your broccoli and pasta is not going to be any less safe compared to adding an equal amount of homemade pesto.

I'm trying to reduce upfs but it's hard (energy/finances/habit wise). I work full-time, have children with additional needs and am a terrible cook!

Last night we had sausages but with kale and carrots. Movie night snacks are doritos but with melon and pineapple too. And breakfast is supermarket granola but with fresh berries and Greek yoghurt.

I'm trying to be kind to myself rather than think I'm a terrible person for letting the kids have a pre-packed croissant. See also plastic waste and air miles to worry about.

So what? I don't care.
We are all going to die. I’d still rather eat the cheese strings. And I’m already middle aged FWIW.

I have a lovely life and I’m going to continue eating bacon and chocolate etc. if that knocks me off my perch and 70 instead of 90 that’s fine.

Happy life more important than a long life.

I think there’s a huge difference between educating a child about UPF and taking a fizzy drink off them (and cutting the already small birthday cake slice in half 🙈) in a children’s party. There’s middle ground between the two extremes of what is, in my opinion, unhealthy disordered eating. I’m not saying focusing on UPFs is - of course it isn’t. We all clearly need to do this but I personally will be teaching this lesson to my own DC carefully and in not such a polarised way. I say this as someone who suffered with hypothalamic amenorrhea in my twenties as I was obsessed with “clean” eating.

Should have added the crucial detail I grew up with my mother talking about food which were bad for us.

Too much going on to add another thing I need to do.

You gave no idea where you lived so I had no way of knowing you weren't in Europe and there is no need for your nasty tone.

"I don’t know anyone who was educated to avoid processed food in childhood who “guzzled” crap food as a result, quite the opposite."

Growing up in the 80s, I had a couple of friends who were mad about sweets because they were restricted at home.

Well, my DD is now eating left over Five Guys chips for breakfast so that will teach me to be overly sanctimonious, which I think I was a bit after reading my posts back!

We have a genetic disease in the family, so that is why I am a bit overcareful. Also, because I grew up in a different country, I didn't eat junk food growing up, so I don't have much of a taste for it. The only junk food I had as a child was crisps, biscuits and chocolate; there were no canned foods or readymeals or ketchup. DC definitely have a taste for it though but they eat in moderation.

@ErnestCelendine what you are doing sounds doable and sensible for most.

So it was 2 years and now it’s 20. You’re not likely to do much harm eating a bit of bacon and chocolate. (Choc doesn’t have to be UPF anyway).

The point about obesity is a. I don’t think it’s making anyone very happy and b. Society bears the cost of this type of “happiness”. Currently costing society around £55-8 billion - 2-3% of GDP.

Ultra Processed Foods.

Non or minimally processed foods include fruit, veg, fish, meat, eggs, nuts, milk, pulses.

Processed ingredients - eg, salt, sugar, oils, butter, vinegar - are items that you would tend to add to other foods, rather than eating them by themselves (although, obviously, there are people who swear by taking a tablespoon of olive oil a day).

Processed foods are generally created by combining groups 1 and 2 and can be made by home cooks - jam, pickles, bread, preserved fruit. It also includes tinned fruit and many cheeses.

Ultra Processed foods typically have five or more ingredients, which may include additives, artificial flavours, emulsifiers, preservatives, artificial colours and sweeteners and have a long shelf life. Industrial food, you might call it.

Obviously, this isn't a comprehensive list. Unfortunately, the UPF list tends to have the 'fun' stuff - sausages, biscuits, crisps, fruit-flavoured yoghurts, a lot of fizzy drinks, ice cream - but there's no reason (unless you have really strict dietary needs), that you can't have the occasional treat from the naughty shelf.

If you can get them, gluten-free sausages made by your local butcher are a much better option and usually taste much nicer.