How should I play this? DD driving me mad!!

[PheobeBebe]

DD (13yo) has had trouble keeping her room tidy for a long time. It's just a huge mess, I have hurt myself going in there in the past as she has dropped earring or needles on the floor and not picked them up. The room struggles with mould around the window but she doesn't even open the curtains properly and has plants all over her windowsill making it extremely hard to clean. We have spoken about what would help her etc, she always says she wants us to ask her to tidy and not raise voices as when anyone gets angry it makes her push back, which I have stuck to (and when it's gotten really bad or gone on for long times I have warned her that I was starting to feel angry without raising voices etc so that we don't get to that point). She NEVER tidies the whole room, just a section and says that she's made an effort and it's better than it was.

Well, she wants to go on a summer camp related to her hobby. It's £550 so not a small sum. We initially said no due to the cost, but have decided she can use some of the savings we have for the kids as it would be a good experience and will help massively with the skill involved in the hobby. Today I told her that she can go IF she tidies her entire room and keeps it tidy for a month. I thought she would bite my hand off, jump up and down with joy and thank me! Boy was I wrong. She was quiet during the discussion and after I left she could be heard crying in her room! I tried to give her a cuddle and ask her what was wrong and keep the whole thing calm, but I must admit I got pretty pissed off and had some words with her as it was quite clear she wants the trip with no strings. She wasn't argumentative, but I told her she was being bloody entitled to think she can just have £550 while not doing the one thing we ask of her. I have offered to help her numerous times, I even tidied her floor and cupboard for her a couple of weeks ago which took me 2/3 hours - all she had to do was tidy up her make up and desk. Needless to say it looks like I never did anything now. I offered to help her today more than once but she insists she doesn't want assistance.
I'm really peeved that what I thought was a reasonable / nice gesture has created WW3. AIBU to feel annoyed with her? And to stick to my guns and say if it isn't completely tidy (and kept tidy) that she isn't going on the camp?

I didn't get pocket money if I didn't tidy my room, non-negotiable. Guaranteed I blitzed it at least once a month. I'm not a tidy person by nature but I do make an effort. I don't think your stance is unreasonable, and I suspect if they talk to their friends other parents will have put conditions on the trip to do with either chores or grades.

Thanks again all for the suggestions. I really have offered to help - I started putting her clothes away for her earlier but she was adamant that she didn't want help so I had to stop. I did try to break it down for her when I did the big tidy a couple of weeks ago e.g. said I've done the floor and the wardrobe, could you just concentrate on clearing your desk top. Then in a day or so concentrate on the desk drawers. Then the next day the make up which is on the chair etc etc so she could spread it out over several days, but it didn't stick. She just procrastinates. I haven't asked her to hoover or dust etc, I just want to be able to do that job when I go into the room. I do like the idea of it should be tidy by X time every week, that made be more palatable to her if she feels she doesn't need to keep it pristine all the time.

This.
Many people on this thread seem very soft when dealing with a child who won't pull their weight in the house. Unless there's ND at play then it's not unreasonable to ask your 13 year old DD to tidy up after herself. I'd be exasperated by the tears and her avoidance of doing a simple chore. You don't have to be cruel or mean about it but you can stick to your guns. My 8 and 11 year olds clean their rooms as a matter of course, let alone for the carrot of a trip.

I think I would go in when you're both feeling calmer and say "DD, I heard you were upset. I'm sorry I was cross earlier. Do you want to tell me what's upsetting you? I'd like to help you, if I can."

If she tells you what the problem is then great.

If she won't talk, then I think you could help her anyway. Make the assumption that she was upset because she really DOES think it's impossible to keep her room clean for a month.

Think about this - you offered the trip as a motivation, to show her she can keep her room clean, right? You have the money for her to go. You WANT her to go. You haven't offered it as a fake carrot, to yank away at the last minute and go "Ha ha, knew you couldn't do it, now you'll think about cleaning your room!"

So start with - someone's natural level of cleanliness is not a moral failure. The state of her room is upsetting to you, but it might literally not bother her at all. The honest truth about why she drops things on the floor is probably that it is the easiest option and it doesn't seem to make a difference in her mind. Try not to get stressed about it nor to see it as a slight on you, or a sign of disrespect.

You could go in tomorrow morning, or talk to her tonight, and say look, DD, I know it's hard for you to keep your bedroom clean. And I know I get cross and perhaps that's a bit unfair. Tomorrow is Sunday, so we're going to spend the day sorting your room out and making it easier for you to keep it clean. I want you to achieve that goal, and I know that you can do it. I believe in you. I want you to have that experience of a month's worth of a clean room to see what it is like.

Open the window while you're cleaning to get some of the stale old air out. Put this podcast on (it will give you a great insight into what she might be struggling with, and it will give her some tips she can use). I apologise, I can't remember if there is any swearing in it. The podcast author does occasionally swear, mostly in ways like "what the fuck" rather than anything directed at anyone.

https://www.strugglecare.com/podcast-rss/04

I know that you want her to do it herself, and I know you've done some cleaning/organising in there recently. But I think that creating organising systems WITH her will probably help a lot. What helped my DS was taking a load of old stuff that he no longer used/wanted out of the room, so it's literally just his bed, chair, computer, desk, school stuff, books and clothes and a couple of figurines for decoration. Plus a bin and laundry bin.

That way when he tidies up he has a clear order of tasks to follow and they are all manageable. We also check in with him regularly (Sundays) to remind him to tidy up, and this helps a lot too.

@BertieBotts thank you for the podcast, I will definitely give it a listen and ask DD to do the same

Organising and keeping a lot of stuff under control is not a skill that comes naturally it needs to be taught, and instilled as a habit from a young age. Especially when you have your whole world of stuff confined to one (usually not huge) room.

Once it comes to the teen years and the contents of their rooms change to lots of clothes, lots of school stuff, makeup, and hobbies etc they still need support and mentoring to teach them how to best organise themselves and all this stuff in one small room.

Add into it EVERYTHING is an effort for teens, so tricks like having a laundry basket/bin without a lid, or a chair as a single place to throw clothes over (keeping the rest of the room clearer), having easy storage, and minimising what is in the room, teaching regular decluttering, and prompting keeping it under control before it becomes overwhelming, really do help. They then learn a tidy room is nicer and easier to control.

Two choices when they are teens - continue to mentor and support them (help but not do it completely for them), or close the door and leave them to work it out themselves.

We went with option 1 for ds(19) and his room was mostly tidy-ish through his teens, and for the last 3 years or so he has been pretty much self cleaning!

Going for option 2 - leaving them to it - then shouting when they fail doesn't achieve anything.

I lived in a permanent hovel as a teen. 2/4 of my kids also live(d) in messy rooms.

I grew up to be obsessively tidy and clean. DD now voluntarily cleans every couple of days and her room is mainly neat. DS I suspect is ND and never learned to clean or tidy. So I shut the door and ignore.

They grow out of it. It’s her space. Leave her to have it as messy as she wants for the most part - just insist she brings dirty pots down! And that she maybe does some tidying once a week, or keeps on top of laundry, so she can earn the trip.

I’m really surprised at most of these responses. I’d be sticking to my guns - I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a teenager to have to abide by house rules for levels of tidiness. I expect mine to have clothes put away, rubbish in the bin, bed made (realistically pulled roughly into the right position) and any dirty dishes taken out daily. Then at the weekend a quick tidy up and Hoover. It doesn’t take long if they keep on top of it.

I’d offer one more time to help her get the room sorted, make sure she had enough storage solutions etc to keep it neat then tell her it’s up to her to keep on top of it. I wouldn’t be backing down on this one.

My room regularly look like a bomb had gone off in it when I was 13 - and it was the same with all my friends. As an adult, my house is spotless.

I found tidying my room really overwhelming as a teenager and I didn't have the common sense to just put things away to begin with. I hated my mum helping me as she always put things away wrong or made negative comments, lol.

However it was always hygienic and there was definitely no mould growing around the windows. For me, there's a difference between messy and hazardous - the former is normal but the latter requires parental invervention.

Good lord, depression, ADHD, ABCDEFG! How about she's just a lazy entitled little madam who needs to pull her finger out. I'm staggered the amount of people all saying their daughters also live in their own muck. You'd all be telling op to throw them out if it was sons behaving like this, not pandering and giving them labels to excuse it. How on earth is this preparing them for the real world? I often wonder if the teens I see throwing rubbish and litter all over the floor outside treat their parents homes the same way. Now I know the answer!

Agree. Honestly, if she is happy in a messy room then leave her be. The only worry is the mouldy windowsill. As long as she is good otherwise, then what's the harm.

That’s a little hysterical.

Teens are often messy. Girls and boys. Basic rules are a good idea, but expecting her daughter to keep a perfect room for a month is not going to happen. And no, people wouldn’t be saying anything different for a 13 year old boy.

Most messy teens grow into responsible adults, so chill.

I will never understand some people’s obsession with their children having tidy bedrooms - and I’m including my own mother in this. So her room is a mess, so what? It’s her room! If it’s unhygienic with food going mouldy on plates etc that’s one thing, but if all it is is untidy who the hell cares? Just shut the door and pick a more important hill to die on.

My daughter drove me nuts with the state of her room. First of all, I made her swap rooms with her brother who was, at that time altogether tidier, so she had the box room and less room to make mess. Then I refused to tidy or clean her room at all, and just shut the door on it. Food and drink upstairs was always verboten in this house, but when I knew she'd broken that rule, there was no dinner dished up for her, as "we don't have enough plates for you to leave them in your room". So that was that nipped in the bud. Laundry was not done if she did not put it in the laundry basket on the landing. Eventually she got fed up of it and sort of cleaned up, well she had to, you couldn't move in there otherwise!
Sadly her brother later went through the same stage. So I shut the door on his room too.
Both grown up now, and their houses are clean and tidy.

All the people on this thread saying it's fine just leave her to it are the ones who were no doubt nightmare housemates at uni or when they moved out into a house share. You need to support her to find a way to maintain a basic standard of safety and cleanliness in her room, otherwise when she moves out she will be the nightmare roomie. A bit messy is okay but what you're describing goes way beyond that and I think it's perfectly appropriate to set that as a requirement for her to go on the trip.

Yea, teenagers are messy, but guess what? You still gotta clean up your mess.

I would have said she needs to earn the money for camp by keeping her room tidy each week. Hopefully then she’ll stick to it.

What chores does she do around the house?

DD1 & 2 used to be shocking. I made sure everything has a home and when their rooms were gross I took pics and sent them to their uncle and Nan. It’s been much better since 😂

My DB loves to wind them up so I let him know when it’s getting a bit messy and he’ll message them.

I also just take their phones or iPads off them and say you can have it back when I can see your floor to mop it.

I’m not that bothered about every day mess but if you’ve got mould the window / curtains definitely needs opening and that would really bother me. I’d also get rid of the plants until she keeps it tidy.

My DD is also messy, dirty washing litters the floor, she takes food upstairs every chance she gets and doesn't bring the plates down, buys drinks from the shop and the bottles collect in her room. There's spilt drinks and food all over her carpet, spilt make up, sweaty trainers, nail clippings all over the drawers, dust an inch thick, smeared windows and mirror, wrappers just dropped on the floor.
Cutlery encrusted with old food. Used sanitary wear litters the floor.

I don't think my DD can tell which clothes are clean and which are dirty because they're all flung on the floor.

DD has a laundry basket and a rubbish bin but doesnt always use them, prefering the floor.
We have been at loggerheads over this too many times to count!
I don't understand how some parents aren't bothered.
DD's bedroom door is almost always closed and yet I can smell her room halfway up the stairs.
This is embarrassing if a guest wants to use the toilet, more so if DD has flung her dirty washing or wet towel on the bathroom floor.
When it affects everyone in the house, even with her door shut, it's not on.
This is why it annoys me, because we all have to live with the odour emanating from her room. It's quite revolting.
I have spent hours and hours tidying it all up, to no avail.
It is reassuring to know I'm not the only parent going through this and I do have faith DD will come out the other side as a clean and tidy person. Occasionally she will blitz her room and this gives me hope but in the meantime, we trundle through each day, sometimes I ignore it, sometimes I clean it, sometimes I get angry, but DD knows I will never be happy about her living like that.
It's unhygienic and smells and it's totally unfair on everyone else in the house.
Like you OP, I have considered she is overwhelmed, and have done it all for her, yet within a couple of days, it's back to where it was and it feels disrespectful! As though DD is happy for me to put the hours in, so long as she doesn't have to make the tiniest effort to drop a wrapper in the bin.
I find it incredibly difficult to be in her room for any length of time because it feels like my soul leaves my body every time I'm in there, simply because its so grim.
I hear you OP. I hear you.

I had two teenage boys I never bothered about the state of their rooms. If they wanted clothes washing they had to bring them down. I would put clean clothes in their rooms and it was up to them if they put them away or not. If they didn't they had crumpled clothes to wear. I left them to it and found once they started having friends round them rooms got tidier.

It isn't worth getting bent out of shape over there are worse things then an untidy rooms and anyway everyone knows teenagers need an aerial view of their clothes that's why they are on the floor.

It could of course just be a teenager, but the not wanting to be shouted at because she's more likely to rebel, coupled with the inability to tidy are things that I experienced as a teenager, and I've only recently as a middle aged adult been diagnosed with ADHD. Girls mask it well, but I still struggle with untidiness including things not making it to a bin. I've adapted as I've got to know myself like another poster - I have two bins in my bedroom for example, so there is always a bin within reach.

Dayna K White has an excellent book, podcast and blog. She's certainly podcasted with parents in similar situations as yours. I believe she also has ADHD, although I'm not sure if she ever mentioned it or if that's just been my assumption.

I would make a new rule - 5 minutes on a timer every day to clean and tidy. Go in her room with her with the timer and do it together - body doubling is a THING that helps people get stuff done, especially if she may have ADHD.

According to Dayna this is the list of priorities, every day:

Take a photo before you start, then start the timer.

1. Take out the Trash. Take a bin bag in with you (both) and anything that is obviously rubbish - sweet wrappers, used cotton pads, empty cosmetics etc - it all goes in the bin bag. If her bin is overflowing, help to her empty that into the wheelie bin and bring it back - even though you know you will find more rubbish.

2. Deal with the "Duh"-clutter - that's probably stuff like plates and cutlery that should be in the kitchen, and clothes on the floor get hung up or taken to the laundry basket. Anything that is DUUH that's obvious and easy to do.

In all honestly, you probably won't get past this stage for 5 minutes with her most days AND that's okay. Dayna advocates for a "progress and only progress" approach - which means that however long or short you work on a space for, you're leaving it better than it was.

3. Take it there now - every single item, every single time. So if she's got say, a pack of sanpro on her desk that should live in the bathroom, it gets picked up and taken to it's proper home in the bathroom, NOT put in a pile of stuff ready to go to the bathroom, even if you know you'll likely find more stuff that belongs in the bathroom. It's part of the progress and only progress thing - even if she gets distracted, even if when the alarm goes off after five minutes she drops everything right there and then, the room will be better off for it, rather than just have the clutter shuffled around a bit.

There's more good stuff with Dayna - including Put it where you (She) would first go to look for it, not where you (mum) thinks it should live. Go look at Dayna's content, honestly.

That's what I would do, and that's what I wish somebody had done with me as a teenager.

Why not start with little things like you can have as much mess as you want aslong as dirty dishes are brought down and the window is left on the notch. I was the messy teenager our house looks spotless as long as you stay out of the dressing room. DS is the same but has a separate lounge area that I retrieve dishes from but is other wise full of crafts and dirty clothes. His bedroom to be fair is okay but he only sleeps in it.

Treat the two things separately. If she won't keep her room decent, take the door and/or bag up the mess in bin liners. And take out the plants! As for camp, if you can afford it, send her.

I was a very messy teen and still struggle with keeping on top of mess. I was just trying to think what I might have found helpful beyond reminders to clean.

1. A list of daily tasks eg things to check before I got into bed each night or went to school in the morning, such as dirty laundry in basket, dishes in kitchen, make my bed
2. Weekly tasks eg Take plants off sill and wipe down, open window to air out room, clear floor and hoover

Or whatever the list needs to be. But I'd probably have wanted it stuck up in my wall or something.

Snap - I didn't understand my dd and tried all the above - she desperately wanted to be different.
I then listened to A Slob Comes Clean podcast and now understand a little more.
I still hate it though 😁

I'm really peeved that what I thought was a reasonable / nice gesture has created WW3.

It was neither of those things. It was manipulation.