Spending downsizing cash

[CueilleLeJour]

I'm really not sure if I'm being unreasonable here.

Mum is 87 and downsized a few years after we lost my dad. She bought a nice little flat and had £150K from the sale.

Growing up, we never had much money and dad kept a close hand on the purse strings. Mum was left with a comfortable but not huge pension, and some moderate savings which she has spent over the last few years.

Since downsizing, she has basically had access to more free money than she's ever had in her life. In the last year, she's spent nearly half the £150k. Mostly on the flat - new kitchen, bathroom, carpets, furniture, professional decorating etc - but also an expensive holiday. It's clearly been an amazing feeling for her to have all the money she could dream of and spend it without my dad's disapproving eye peering over her shoulder. Part of me thinks it's great and she should just enjoy it while she can.

But part of me is really alarmed at her getting through half the proceeds in a year, and I worry about possible future care needs. My BIL's mum is 90 and has been in a care home for 3 years and it's just burning cash. They wouldn't let her in without proving she had 2 years of costs up front - which I think was about 140K.

My mum is just convinced she won't ever need a care home, and I know she's better off than many people who have nothing put by. It's also really none of my business, it's her money to do what she wants with. It's not dementia or anything, just someone who has never really had to make financial decisions having a whale of a time splashing the cash.

But am I right to have a little anxiety about it all?

YABU You only live once, she's right to spend it while she can
YANBU It's a bit reckless to spend half your downsizing profits in the first year

I do see your point about care. My nan had a lot of money from a lifetime of good fortune and good financial management from her and my grandad, they had a nice life and travelled, after he died she wasn’t interested in doing lots of stuff but she did do some home improvements.

She had dementia and needed care and I must say it really made a difference that she had the means to get a place in any home she / her children chose and was able to be in one in a familiar location, with extremely high quality - thus expensive - care. No shade at all on funded care, in terms of individual caters, it’s just not comparable in terms of resources.

yes, it is a small chance that your mum will
need care and I think people are right that your mum should enjoy living her life. But I can understand why you feel concerned.

I think it's unlikely she would be deemed to have deliberately run down her assets - a lot of it was on the flat and you could argue she needed to make it habitable. Though that is stretching the truth, they couldn't prove it. And one expensive holiday is perfectly reasonable in itself.

My concern is not social care refusing to fund her, it is that she doesn't really understand how having a financial cushion gives you more choices. And she's not interested in that discussion because she doesn't believe she will ever need care.

But you agreed when I said her intention was probably to use the proceeds of her flat to pay for care if she needs it. Say she can live independently for another five years, she can spend £15k a year and still have her flat to pay for any care she might need. It’s got to be worth enough to cover at least a couple of years in a care home.

My Mum chose to stay in her own home and have carers 4 times a day. It helped that she had known those carers for 13 years as they had looked after my brother. Mum had worked in a care home before giving up to look after my dad and brother at home and always vowed to never have to go in one. She had a fall and broke her pelvis aged 81, after coming out of hospital she was bed ridden for 6 months before she died peacefully in her sleep at home where she wanted to be.

I would guess maybe some of the spending is coping with the death of her partner maybe?

If your intensions are her wellbeing vs looking for inheritance vs you concerned you may have to pay for her care. Have a think about what it is.

Its her money and her right to spend it.
If you're going to talk to her do it for kind reasons :)

Did you mean to use ‘digitalis’ as in the toxic Foxglove, instead of Dignitas? 😆

The majority of elderly people would choose to stay in their home as long as possible, until death in fact. Everyone has different priorities in life

Maybe she does understand but has made the choice to improve her living situation now and make her home nice with the intention of living there as long as she possibly can?

toomuchfaff, what about the taxes she or her husband may have paid over the years to keep the can't be arsed to work brigade? !!! It's her money and she should spend it how she wants, because I'll tell you something, I've worked for 50 years and should I get a lump sum of cash I'll blow the lot !!!

upthehills1, this is me absolutely.thank you x

Regardless of what you’d choose, if dementia comes calling you’re not going to be safe in your own home and residential care is the only option. After seeing my mum blossom when we finally bit the bullet I’ve changed my mind about care homes.

Well, yes, she is living for the present and letting the future take care of itself. Which may or may not work out for her.

It could be argued that the people who take a responsible attitude to funding their own care will be paying for you, the "can't be arsed to save brigade". I don't see that's morally any different.

If you read all my responses through the full thread you will see I have given this far more thought than the random strangers accusing me of trying to protect my inheritance.

I have simply seen that the final stages of dementia or extreme old age are slightly easier to deal with if you have some resources to give you some control and choice over your arrangements.

Yes, she can sell her house if she goes into care, but there are other circumstances - such as needing care in your own home - where having resources means you have more choice. For example, you could choose a care firm which treats its staff well and means they are more reliable and better trained than others.

But again - if you read the full thread - I fully accept it is not my place to criticise her, I am not planning to do anything to stop her, she has every right to do what she wants with her money, she may well never need care, she is very happy right now, and I am very grateful to still have her in my life and be able to spend happy times with her.

Has anyone said they are against funding elderly care for those that need it or said people should not go on holiday or decorate their homes? People have a responsibility to make some provision for their later years rather than expecting the state to just pick up the tab like it is some sort of free bar. Your children and other care home residents are the ones who are going to be taxed to pay for your care, if you do not make provision when you could have. That's morally repugnant.

Can we stop talking about “free bars” and moral repugnance? The fact is that anyone who owns a house or flat has a couple of years residential care covered and the average stay is 19 months. Added to which only 15% of the population actually goes into residential care.

I haven't in any way implied my mum is morally repugnant.

Posters who suggest quite deliberately blowing your money so the state will have to pick up the tab, or managing your estate to minimise liability for either care or inheritance tax, are coming from a very particular moral perspective that I don't share.

Those of us who have been lucky enough to watch the values of our home soar above what we paid for them should remember our profit comes at the expense of every single young person's ability to buy a house, not just our own children. Expecting the younger generation to pay the full cost of our care, when we could afford to contribute ourselves, doesn't sit right with me.

I completely agree with you. My comment was addressed to another poster and I should have made that clear.

My point about those of us who own property still stands. If you feel so strongly about the profit you’ve made on yours, feel free to sell it below market value - personally I see mine as the care home fund.

Hi OP

Sorry if its been covered but perhaps the middle ground here is making sure she has some adaptions in her flat, such as rails for the toilet and an accessible shower?

Tbh at 87 I would be letting her enjoy it after a life of frugality. If she was 57 or 67 I might worry more!

At least she has you looking out for her too x

I am happy with my analogy and I am ok with my thoughts on what I personally consider to be morally repugnant. We have an aging population, the cost of which will have a considerable financial impact in the coming years. As a country we are in debt which is expensive to service and the books don't balance. It has been shown on this thread and other threads that some feel its ok to blow or ring fence their money because the state will pick up the tab for their care or for that or their relatives.

Expecting those that can put something toward their care even if they cannot cover all of their care costs is not the same as saying you can only live on bread and water until you die. If you are ok with your children and other members of society picking up the tab for those that could but didn't bother because they were entitled not too or purely because they have paid some tax. That's that great, it's just not where I am at.

Like I said, we need change at an institutional, community and individual level.

@Blossomtoes

Forgot to add. I think we should just agree to disagree.

Hopefully the OPs mum is through the big spending stage and has many years ahead to enjoy her new home and her family.

I think I said I'd do it if I was widowed so I can't give an age. I'm in my 70s now. The point is it won't be any of their business. I would have savings, a property to sell, my SRP, my private pension and half of his pension plus I'd be entitled to attendance allowance if I needed residential care. I'd pay for myself so I can do what I like with my money.

Putting property into a trust to avoid care fees is unlikely to be legal in the UK and the council will challenge it and probably win
.

Let’s be clear that if we have enough money to self fund the local authority will never go anywhere near our financial affairs. My position is like yours @Iwasafool so our expenditure is nobody’s business but our own.

To win though the council will have to prove that there was an expectation of care and that it was done intentionally to avoid care fees.

it’s harder than you think to prove.

it tends to be circumstances like moving in with a child as the parent can no longer live independently, and building extensions/paying for improvements on that child’s home.

in that case there is a clear need for care, and the money has been used to benefit the child.