Alabama ruling that embryos are "children"

[Samsond]

Anyone else really scared about the direction the US is going with these rulings? Alabama has already ruled against abortion for any reason whatsoever. Now all IVF in the state has had to be halted as a court has ruled that embryos are "children". I just can't understand what's going to happen there. It feels they're getting more and more like a religious fundamentalist state. Are they heading the way of somewhere like Iran? It's insane.

I don't think that you can ban abortion, but allow IVF. The backlash against this might actually help the pro choice movement. Likewise if women can face criminal charges when they return from getting an abortion, then so should couples who travel for IVF. That includes those that have used surrogates. Like parts of self ID have come full circle, abortion might. I'm pro BTW.

Not all all. I have had multiple miscarriages, the latest one I had was at 22 weeks. The earliest at around 5 weeks. They felt different to me, though I grieved both. Im still Pro choice. I still think it's a relevant question, because our feelings change around what the embryo /fetus/ bunch of cells/ baby - indeed what we call it, is dependant on the circumstances and perceptions in those different circumstances. The ethics and morality of this of interest to me.

Sorry my bad.

I have had a lot of ivf. I would definitely not go through it with donor eggs of someone over 35. It is too expensive and arduous not to maximise the chances of success.

We have two frozen embryos. I am very attached to them and cannot let them go. I also cannot afford more children. So they wait in the hope of a lottery win really. Some day I will donate them probably, but I am not ready to yet. They feel like my babies to be honest.

I completely agree with what you're saying. Most people seem uncomfortable with the premise that life begins at conception, but if not then, when? Some arbitrary point of our choosing/whatever we consider to be socially expedient? We make it up as we go along.

Most people seem uncomfortable with the premise that life begins at conception, but if not then, when?

A non circular definition of "life" would be a start. OK, that's the pedant in me, but it's a very real question. Without a very real answer.

Thank you, this is it. I think we do make it up according to our feelings around a particular circumstance.

It's hard to discuss because it's potentially very emotive. I don't want to hurt or upset anyone. I do find it a very interesting topic though and as a society I think these things are important to debate because they are fundamental to our values. Im not sure we even know enough to have a 'right' or 'wrong' answer. But the situation the OP describes ... I don't see it as an impossible situation for us to have in the UK one day.

I’m not sure it’s necessarily important to determine exactly when life begins when it comes to abortion. Mostly, pro-choice people don’t argue about whether or not an embryo or a foetus is alive: they generally accept that it may be alive in the biological sense, even right from conception, but believe that it’s by far the lesser of two evils for an unwanted or unviable embryo or foetus to be terminated than a woman have to shoulder the risk of carrying and birthing a child she doesn’t want, or a child which would have little quality of life. Beyond that different individuals may have their own views about whether the abortion limit should be set at viability or not, or whether it’s acceptable to abort disabled foetuses at a later stage than healthy ones, but pro-choice people don’t argue from the position that a foetus isn’t alive at whatever stage it’s aborted but from the position that whilst it relies on a woman for its survival, its rights are second to hers.

It’s ironic they are so obsessed with the discrimination against women in Arab countries when they are just as bad themselves. The fundamental Christian groups are getting more powerful over there. You couldn’t pay me to live there. Despicable place.

@ComtesseDeSpair absolutely EVERYTHING you said. That's it in a complete nutshell

@Wallaw I'm sorry, what I said was crass and offensive to Americans🙏

No, no and no.

You can’t just jam an embryo up your chuff and hope for the best. They are frozen without liquid so they need to be defrosted using a special process, regrown in an appropriate environment to recover their cells, and then placed directly in the uterus using specialist equipment.

Frozen embryos also don’t like being defrosted and refrozen so they are rarely tested as they’re more likely to perish.

There are quite definitely no groups online facilitating this in the UK as the HFEA won’t allow clinics to release embryos to their owners without being certain that they are unviable for transfer. You can only send them clinic to clinic if you hope to use them.

The effects of the overturn of Roe vs Wade are terrifying.

A PP shared a link where several doctors gave examples of women who had to travel out of state to have their life threatening ectopic pregnancies treated.

Shortly after Roe vs Wade was overturned I experienced a ruptured tubal ectopic pregnancy. Fortunately I was in the UK and, within an hour of the scan which showed I had internal bleeding, I was in emergency surgery to save my life. I shudder to think what women in my situation in countries with extreme anti abortion laws have experienced.

There have also been impacts on women's ability to access certain drugs in the US. Methotrexate is a common Disease Modifying Anti Rheumatic drug used to treat conditions like Rheumatoid Arthritis. Methotrexate cannot safely be taken during pregnancy or for 3 months prior to TTC. Men who want to TTC are also advised to avoid methotrexate. Methotrexate is sometimes used to treat ectopic pregnancies without surgery.

In some states women are being refused Methotrexate all together in case they accidentally conceive whilst on treatment. Including women who have been using Methotrexate for years to manage their autoimmune disease.

I can well imagine contraception access being targeted next.

I'm pro abortion to 18 weeks. After that is iffy because the youngest to survive was 20wks. 24 weeks is far too late for me but I see the practical reasons, I only agree with medical terminations for terrible life expectancy after that.

A PP shared a link where several doctors gave examples of women who had to travel out of state to have their life threatening ectopic pregnancies treated.

That loophole is being very carefully narrowed, as some states try to ban, or prosecute anyone who provides a source of information about such services. Give someone a phone number of an out of state clinic ? Then you, my friend, are on the way to jail for conspiracy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/04/magazine/abortion-interstate-travel-post-roe.html

Can we please not lump the rest of the US in with Alabama?

Signed, a New Yorker.

What do you actually think a being is then if not a bundle of cells? One could argue that even a plant is a being. Noticed I said being and not person, but if we can’t even recognise that the embryo is a living entity then I’m afraid we are in a scary place socially.

@Borntrippy, an embryo isn't a living being, it doesn't meet the 7 point test

"In biology, it is generally agreed that organisms that possess the following seven characteristics are animate or living beings and thus possess life: the ability to respire, grow, excrete, reproduce, metabolize, move, and be responsive to the environment."

I just don't get the anti birth control view that some seem to adopt. I'm of a similar view to @LimeViewer in that I feel limits should be set around abortion. But I am a firm believer that the very best way to prevent the need for abortion in the first place is through education and by ensuring that women and couples have access to safe and highly effective contraception. Attempting to outlaw birth control says to me that you actually have no interest in preventing abortion but that infact all you want to do is control how others live their lives because you feel it to be immoral.

I think the whole usa is bloody barking mad fatty food and god.
And forcing women to have children even if they have been rapped.
If you dont own a bible or a gun dont go to the USA.

For anyone interested in potentially having your embryos adopted, found this organisation:

https://nightlight.org/embryo-donation-united-kingdom/

I don’t think that embryo donation should be something which is encouraged or promoted.

I do think it should be available within the same clinic to those who wish to do it, but clinics e.g. offering discounted priced IVF to couples who agree to donate remaining embryos is just wrong.

Because we’re not talking here about a bundle of cells in the long term, we’re talking about people who have clearly been through infertility treatment to have a child having more potential biological children out there, children who will presumably be able to track them down when they’re 18, and meet the siblings who were essentially conceived at the very same time as they were, or not, if the woman doesn’t end up pregnant and the recipient does.

Women should have the choice to destroy their embryos or to donate them free of charge, but as much as people have the choice to abort a pregnancy or destroy frozen embryos, the donation of embryos for incentives amounts to selling your potential children and is a step too far IMO.

No.

“If you are interested in adopting embryos through Snowflakes, we require you to travel to the U.S. for your Frozen Embryo Transfer (FET) procedure. Please email Paige at “

That’s if you want to adopt the embryos not donate. Donation can be done from the UK.

It’s all gone a bit crackers in some states…

This is a difficult concept for me as I feel anyone who could donate is amazing and you could be changing someone else’s life enabling them to have a baby.

However when we had IVF (ICSI) I just felt a huge responsibility over those embryos and the thought that there would be a life I’d created out there somewhere which could be awful and my biological children could be being mistreated made me think I couldn’t ever do this.

It’s definitely something I see both sides to but personally and having gone through and also as a teacher seeing the lives some children suffer through; I just couldn’t.