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Original poster

Alabama ruling that embryos are "children"

145 replies

Samsond · 22/02/2024 07:27

Anyone else really scared about the direction the US is going with these rulings? Alabama has already ruled against abortion for any reason whatsoever. Now all IVF in the state has had to be halted as a court has ruled that embryos are "children". I just can't understand what's going to happen there. It feels they're getting more and more like a religious fundamentalist state. Are they heading the way of somewhere like Iran? It's insane.

OP posts:
Mistymist · 22/02/2024 11:54

@Borntrippy in some countries embryo donation is banned BY LAW, so clinics can't break the law in order to facilitate donation. It is as simple as that. Many couples don't even get embryos to freeze, they are lucky to end up with one to transfer and nothing to freeze and use at a later date.

dammit88 · 22/02/2024 11:56

It is very interesting .... a now deleted thread this morning had the majority of posters saying that Certificate of Loss should be available to women who have had chemical pregnancies because they were babies to those women. But in this context, the majority don't see them as babies.

Context seems to be everything. Sometimes I agree such things could never happened here .... other times I don't see it is so far fetched. If we give the same Certificate of Loss to women who have experienced a chemical pregnancy as we do to women who have had a miscarriage at 18 weeks for arguments sake we ARE suggesting they are the same thing?

Borntrippy · 22/02/2024 11:59

Not in this country, you are able to donate embryos to people you know, hence why there are groups that exist to make this possible. And in the US, the country we are currently discussing embryo adoption is not only legal but quite straightforward thanks to all the religious groups there who are motivated to facilitate it.

Borntrippy · 22/02/2024 12:00

Morality is subjective. Ethics however shouldn’t be.

KimberleyClark · 22/02/2024 12:01

I would also like to know what “abortion after birth” means.

SerendipityJane · 22/02/2024 12:07

dammit88 · 22/02/2024 11:56

It is very interesting .... a now deleted thread this morning had the majority of posters saying that Certificate of Loss should be available to women who have had chemical pregnancies because they were babies to those women. But in this context, the majority don't see them as babies.

Context seems to be everything. Sometimes I agree such things could never happened here .... other times I don't see it is so far fetched. If we give the same Certificate of Loss to women who have experienced a chemical pregnancy as we do to women who have had a miscarriage at 18 weeks for arguments sake we ARE suggesting they are the same thing?

A CoL might be needed in future as a defence against murder,

cookingwithabigail · 22/02/2024 12:09

KimberleyClark · 22/02/2024 12:01

I would also like to know what “abortion after birth” means.

Edited

It means euthanasia of a baby that's found to be very sick or disabled following the birth.

cookingwithabigail · 22/02/2024 12:11

They'll be after women who've drank, smoked or used drugs during their pregnancies next.

I wonder if they're allowed to remove a missed miscarriage.

dammit88 · 22/02/2024 12:23

SerendipityJane · 22/02/2024 12:07

A CoL might be needed in future as a defence against murder,

Show quote history

I never thought of that .... again not an impossible scenario ....

Borntrippy · 22/02/2024 12:23

So disabled people can be murdered at birth! Pure fascism disguised as liberalism, lots of that around nowadays.

ememem84 · 22/02/2024 12:32

candgen625 · 22/02/2024 08:09

Will they ban masturbation next. Every soerm is sacred and obviously could be life!!!!

Wasn’t there a quote from legally blonde? Something along the lines of every mastubatory event bejnf reckless abandonment?

WickedSerious · 22/02/2024 12:34

Samsond · 22/02/2024 07:49

"Curiosity101 · Today 07:44

My friend is considering moving back to the UK for these sorts of reasons. She's convinced they'll go after birth control next and then they'll have forced her hand and she'll have to come back"

Surely this can't happen?

I wouldn't put money on it.

Borntrippy · 22/02/2024 13:02

You clearly said euthanasia in your post of which of course the first example in the US that you are now citing is not an example of. So do you only support the withholding of care? Or also the apparently legal neonatal euthanasia in the Netherlands? Because there is an ethical gulf between the two.

RMNofTikTok · 22/02/2024 13:03

Samsond · 22/02/2024 07:27

Anyone else really scared about the direction the US is going with these rulings? Alabama has already ruled against abortion for any reason whatsoever. Now all IVF in the state has had to be halted as a court has ruled that embryos are "children". I just can't understand what's going to happen there. It feels they're getting more and more like a religious fundamentalist state. Are they heading the way of somewhere like Iran? It's insane.

Great, does that mean pregnant women can now claim child support?

showmethegin · 22/02/2024 13:06

dammit88 · 22/02/2024 11:56

It is very interesting .... a now deleted thread this morning had the majority of posters saying that Certificate of Loss should be available to women who have had chemical pregnancies because they were babies to those women. But in this context, the majority don't see them as babies.

Context seems to be everything. Sometimes I agree such things could never happened here .... other times I don't see it is so far fetched. If we give the same Certificate of Loss to women who have experienced a chemical pregnancy as we do to women who have had a miscarriage at 18 weeks for arguments sake we ARE suggesting they are the same thing?

That's completely different. I've had three miscarriages that completely broke me, at 6 weeks 8 weeks and 11 weeks. They devastated me because when you find out you're pregnant you look forward to the process of moving through the pregnancy sure but basically it is because at the end of it you get a baby to raise. Yes I called them my babies because that is what they were going to be but I KNEW they were embryos. When I got to 24 weeks with my only successful pregnancy I started to relax as we were getting to the age of viability.

It is so so so bloody offensive to use the way women feel about a miscarriage as some sort of gotcha in relation to abortion rights. My experiences with trying to start a family have absolutely no bearing on anyone else or their choices and I will support a woman's right to abortion till the day I die.

showmethegin · 22/02/2024 13:08

It's not about drawing some arbitrary line of x weeks it's this and x weeks it's that. The point of the certificates is that we are honouring the way the woman and/or partner grieves their loss, at whatever stage it occurs.

JanewaysBun · 22/02/2024 13:14

cookingwithabigail · 22/02/2024 12:11

They'll be after women who've drank, smoked or used drugs during their pregnancies next.

I wonder if they're allowed to remove a missed miscarriage.

Women have already been jailed for miscarrying and having drugs in their system. I believe some states made up a special charge about 10 years ago to make it easier to convict. And again this disproportionally affects women on colour.

(I was reading about this earlier)

Somanystupidpeople · 22/02/2024 13:16

@DotjonesI'm very pro-abortion by the way, I'm not some pro-lifer. I'd like to see abortions be freely available to anyone who wants one for any reason at any point in a pregnancy, in some cases even after birth. My point is if you accept a cut-off based on one timeframe you also need to accept other people might think a different timeframe is more appropriate

Wtf? Babies can and have survived when born at 24 weeks. You think it's ok to abort a 37 week full term foetus? Disgusting. That's a full term baby that could've been adopted.

Edit: Also how can you abort a baby that's already been born? That's murder.

DragonFly98 · 22/02/2024 13:27

Anameisaname · 22/02/2024 08:06

It's bonkers because then who is to blame. So if a couple do a round of IVF create some embryos and then have a successful pregnancy and don't want another and stop paying for storage then who is "killing" here? The clinic? The parents? Are they put up for adoption?

Honestly the US has gone quite mad and will tie itself in knots for years on this stuff. And ultimately only a few people really care, most of the rest of them just want to get on with lives

Yes they can be put up for adoption there are multiple agencies that already do this nightlight snowflake adoption being the most well known.

Pipp223 · 22/02/2024 13:38

ntmdino · 22/02/2024 11:32

It's worse than all of that - think about it, a miscarriage is effectively involuntary manslaughter under this law. A second miscarriage, where the chances are higher because of the first, could even be considered negligent homicide.

The US has been a religious state for decades; you can't hold any major office without professing your allegiance to the country's chosen religion. While it's not a specific rule, it's effectively impossible to be elected.

This kind of bullshit is just the natural consequence of that, and it's nowhere near the endgame.

Some people might read this and think it a fanciful or hypothetical scenario.

Unfortunately, this is already happening - there have been at least 1,200 prosecutions attempted against women in the US after pregnancy loss - with several high profile cases where they have spent 16-18 months in jail, before seeing charges dismissed.

Itsallabouttea · 22/02/2024 13:40

Good old America where the 'life' of a bundle of cells seems more important than the lives of adult women, people of colour...

KnittedCardi · 22/02/2024 13:44

BBC News - More women investigated for illegal terminations, says abortion provider
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68305991

Fortunately in the UK there are current calls for more leniency, as there has been recent "creep" towards prosecution.

It won't happen here, we are too liberal and secular, but, there always needs to be vigilence.

BakedBeansforabrain · 22/02/2024 13:45

The reason the Pilgrims went to America was because of religious persecution. But the reson for that persecution was because they were fanatical puritans who basically denounced everybody who did not live by their extremely strict rules.

So America wasn't founded by persecuted people looking for freedom, it was founded by religious extremists who had no choice but to settle there because they were so extremist that they were banned from all of Europe.

Do Americans realise they escaped to America and dislodged the natives so they could escape religious persecution and now religious persecution is ninety per cent of recent policies.

Gloriosaford · 22/02/2024 13:47

This reply has been deleted

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StaunchMomma · 22/02/2024 14:10

That's some mad Gillead shit, right there.