Alabama ruling that embryos are "children"

[Samsond]

Anyone else really scared about the direction the US is going with these rulings? Alabama has already ruled against abortion for any reason whatsoever. Now all IVF in the state has had to be halted as a court has ruled that embryos are "children". I just can't understand what's going to happen there. It feels they're getting more and more like a religious fundamentalist state. Are they heading the way of somewhere like Iran? It's insane.

If embryos/foetuses are children... maybe men should pay child support from conception?

Why should men have to pay for anything? They are the superior sex dontcha know? Us evil murderous women should just close our legs and bathe in the light of virginity until we are told it is tine to reproduce. Then straight back to keeping our knees together, obviously.

Don't be silly. That would inconvenience men.

We someone miscarries to them they lose a baby so it can mean many things to different people

If I was a woman in USA and I had the means I would be leaving. This ruling and its repercussions are abhorrent.

If an embryo is a child then maybe I should have taken out life insurance on the three pregnancies I lost??

Well by this sentiment I now have four DC. Must admit though, 3 of them are MUCH quieter than the one sat on my knee currently!

What ridiculousness. I care about my frosties, as in I would be devastated if I lost them for any reason, but they obviously aren't in the same league as my DD is!

Why would one be scared about a ruling in one state of a foreign country, a state and country which is far overall more religious and conservative on social issues than my own. And besides, embryos are not children but they are living beings and we should have more conversations around the morality of discarding them as easily as we seem to be doing at the moment. It’s the main reason I struggle with the thought of IVF which I may need at some point in the future.

@Borntrippy discarding then as easily as we seem to be doing? Who is "easily discarding" their embryos? Many of us pay £££ to keep them frozen despite not knowing if we will ever want to/be able to use them. Most people who complete their journey and have embryos remaining donate them to other couples or more commonly to science to help train/learn more about IVF, thus helping future couples. Not many choose to simply "discard" them.
Im sorry if you are possibly going to need IVF at some point, it's an absolute shitter. But you may need to adjust your views

It’s great that many keep their embryos or donate them, that’s what I’d be looking to do too. However many many many don’t and while I believe it’s a personal choice I do think it’s a conundrum fertility clinics should be more upfront about early on.

@Borntrippy where are you finding these "many many many" who don't? Do you have figures? I don't have solid figures, but discarding embryos is definitely the least common option when this subject is discussed (fairly regularly) in a large post IVF support group I am a part of. Donating to science is by far the most popular choice. After all, many of us wouldn't have our children had people before us not opted to support the development of IVF in this way.

"Figures obtained by the Guardian show that the number of embryos donated to research, after IVF treatment, fell steadily from 17,925 in 2004 to 675 in 2019, the most recent year for which data is available. In the same year, 76,427 embryos were transferred in IVF cycles and 172,915 were discarded, according to figures from the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA)."

amp.theguardian.com/science/2023/dec/06/call-to-help-ivf-patients-donate-unused-embryos-after-shortage-hinders-research

It does seem to be an issue with clinics not offering it though. But 675 donated vs 173k discarded definitely backs up the PPs "many many" comment.

Not that I personally have an issue with it really

Blessed be the fruit.

Under his eye

@Borntrippy embryos are not "beings" they are a bundle of cells. A potential being sure, but that's it. Both my kids were born via IVF. I didn't have the dilemma as all my viable embryos were used BUT I'd have had no qualms donating any un-needed ones for research.

Thanks @CrispsandCheeseSandwich that is interesting as it's certainly not the trend I see within the support group I am a part of. But my view is likely skewed by the fact that people who join a support group are a cross section of a much larger group on the whole, not an entire representation.

Apologies @Borntrippy if this is the source you were quoting from

I personally don't have an issue with people discarding either. It's their choice.

Thank you! Saved me some Googling to get the figures! My main issue is with clinics not women trying to conceive, I know how hard that journey is. However clinics need to make the donation procedure much more of a priority. One huge issue is that most won’t accept donation of embryos to other couples if those embryos are from eggs older than 35 years old. Considering the ages of many IVF recipients it makes sense that so many are therefore discarded.

Because there are religious groups in this country already taking lessons from the US about how they can enact the same legislation here. Thankfully the church doesn’t have quite the same hold over here - but we have thousands of faith schools and bishops in the Lords so it’s not a stretch to think the same bullshit could happen here.

What do you actually think a being is then if not a bundle of cells? One could argue that even a plant is a being. Noticed I said being and not person, but if we can’t even recognise that the embryo is a living entity then I’m afraid we are in a scary place socially.

Yeah it’s a stretch. You think the very liberal, middle of the road Church of England would propose such legislation in this country? Talk about hyperbole.

We share the same frustrations regarding this don't worry. My embryos couldn't be donated to another couple if we choose not to use them in the future because my BMI was 31 at conception not less than 30. But frustrating as that is, them rules exist to protect recipient couples from poorer quality embryos

Also a lot of people probably feel guilty about divulging they would discard. Of course they are within their rights to do so but I’d imagine some would feel guilty.

I understand the reasons however there is a third option and that is donating to couples who are willing to take the risk for free privately and not through the clinic. The embryos can also be tested beforehand for issues. There are groups on social media I believe where such transfers are organised. However the clinics could do more to facilitate this third option although I would assume the profit motive prevents them from doing so.

it's terrifying. The abortion laws in the US are already having an awful affect on women who have miscarriages, as they are investigated / accused of having caused the miscarriage.

Depends what discarded refers to. Out of those there are several thousand that would have been discarded before being frozen as they didn't fertilise or develop properly. That 175k are probably mainly made up of those than those that have completed their families and then chose to discard. I'm sure many keep them on ice as long as humanly possible. Just in case.

I'll be donating mine to science but even then i do feel a bit guilty i never have them a chance though I don't think I'd want to risk 7 kids!!

Nobody on this planet looks at Alabama and thinks 'theyre doing well, I'll copy what they're doing' surely?

They're usually in bottom 5 at best for anything good- literacy, life expectancy etc and top 5 for bad stuff

Yes of course I was talking about the Church of England 🙄

You do realise other religions do exist in this country.