To not let 15 year old drive my children around?

[Shabooboogaloo]

Just back from half term with family in USA.
Where they live 15 year olds can drive (!) due to crap local transport.
15 year old DN has been driving to school, around town etc for 6+ months and was apparently excited to get to take my kids (10 and 12) out in the car to the local coffee place a few miles away. On their own.

Now - if they were walking I would have let the 3 get on with it, go out together but there was NO WAY I was letting them go out in a SUV in a city on their own.

Had a quiet word with the mom to that effect. Everyone thought I was the ultimate buzzkill and a bit insulting to the 15 year old. my offer to go with them was shot down. The trip didn’t happen.

YABU - fun police! It would have been fine and the 15 year old would have been able to handle it sensibly.

YANBU - 15 is too young to be responsible for young passengers, too young to be in the roads alone in fact.

YANBU. I think we let people start driving too young in this country let alone America!🤷‍♀️

So a 17 year old preparing to leave home and go to uni/ into full time employment shouldn’t be allowed to drive? Give your head a wobble

The Rise in U.S. Traffic Deaths - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
Why Are American Drivers So Deadly? - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

No, "They do this in the US and it's normal" is NOT a reason to allow this.

For a start, the US has terrible traffic accident stats and unlike in most countries, they are getting worse, not better. And no, not just because "Well, they drive more"; US traffic accident stats are dreadful even when measured by metrics like "accidents per million miles" etc. The driving there really is more dangerous; I can go into long explanations as to why if anyone is interested.

And no, it is not normal for 15yos to drive. The minimum age is 16 in most areas (other than special, limited situations like driving small vehicles around farms etc.), and American parents are increasingly having their kids delay the start of driving for a couple of years or so when possible, in part because the roads are so deadly.

Why aren't teenagers driving? - The Washington Post

As for issues re driving in the US:

The US built its cities around wide roads which encourage higher speeds.

Driving safety enforcement is terrible -- police officers are slack, there are few speed cameras. Like a lot of stuff, the US is caught between an increasingly polarized left and right; rightwingers have hysterics at anything that looks like it might limit MY DRIVING FREEDOM; leftwingers refuse to enforce laws because "Oh no, what if it disproportionately affected a racial minority?" and because they encouraged a huge pullback in policing after George Floyd.

Slack attitudes about alcohol and driving; I witnessed this so many times when I was there.

Increasingly huge cars, fuelled by greater wealth than the UK and the fact that the infrastracture, tax/regulation system etc do nothing to discourage the arms race.

The US driving test is a bit of a joke in most areas and is notoriously easy to pass.

Stupid and dangerous laws like "right turn on red" which would be considered an absolute no-no in most developed countries.

How is right turn on red stupid and dangerous? You do realize it doesnt mean you come up to the red light and just keep going and turn. You stop, look and if its clear you can go. It's EXACTLY the same thing as pulling up to a Stop Sign you plan to make a right turn at. But you dont call Stop Signs stupid and dangerous do you?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/17/right-turn-on-red-light-ban
https://apnews.com/article/red-light-turn-pedestrian-bicyclist-deaths-7f5bdee9c7b3f4cbf005f1844f486123
https://www.axios.com/local/seattle/2024/02/21/no-turn-on-red-new-intersections
https://www.11alive.com/article/news/politics/drivers-react-right-turn-on-red-banned-several-key-parts-atlanta/85-fa01eee2-2fe4-457e-bcd8-b297b309b3bf
https://www.planetizen.com/news/2024/02/127537-denver-road-safety-advocates-call-banning-right-turns-red

Er, even in the US it is now widely realized that right-on-red greatly increases the risk of accidents. This is just a small sample of articles gleaned from a new search.

Actually potentially safer to drive there with wider roads, easier parking etc.

I learned to drive at 15 when living in the US. And the roads in those rural areas are far safer than anywhere I have driven here. Also they tend to drive automatics so don't even have to shift gears.

Actually, the exact opposite is the case. The data shows very clearly that the US has unusually high death rates, even when measured by "deaths per XXXkm"or whatever way you want to measure. The wider roads actually encourage faster driving, and the easier parking mostly seems to mean that the driving tests are pretty slack and don't require very much skill (yes, it varies state by state, WE KNOW THAT).

Generally, countries with lots of narrow roads and tricky, right parking have much safer roads, simply because this forces drivers to slow down and concentrate and because countries that are like this (Netherlands and Japan are the most extreme examples) have unusually difficult driving tests that weed out terrible drivers.

And believe it or not, rural roads are disproportionately more deadly in the States. People drive even faster, there is less law enforcement and slacker driver behavior. In the event of a smash involving the OP's kids, ambulances may be a long time arriving as rural distances are often huge in the States.

"In 2020, the risk of dying in a crash was 62% higher on a rural road compared to an urban road for the same trip length. Major contributing factors include simpler roadway infrastructure, poor emergency medical services and risky behaviors, like not wearing a seat belt, impaired driving, speeding and distracted driving." https://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2022/09/29/beautiful-and-deadly-a-disproportionate-number-of-people-die-on-americas-rural-roads/?sh=339a93bb2a24

I wouldn’t have let my children go in the car with her either, OP.

But, I do want to push back on your assertion that the driving test here is a joke and everyone passes…no they don’t, I know loads of people who failed first time, including me and I was an experienced driver when I emigrated! It’s not that easy and when my DD (18) took her test, several people who took it before her failed-one lady had a hissy fit at the examiner! 😂

They also have to complete 60 hours of supervised driving before they can take their test, which is a lot. I don’t think I’d had 60 hours’ driving experience when I took my test in the UK (although the test may have changed since then).

An excited, proud 15 year old who wants to demonstrate her new skills to her younger visiting cousins? Hell no. Would she have told them if they were being distracting? No offence to you, OP, but would the kids even have obediently shut up on command if the 15 year old said, "hey I need to concentrate"?

She passed her test, but not under those conditions. Has she even driven with chattering younger passengers before?

The accident rates are higher for young drivers, and higher still for young drivers with passengers on board.

According to the AA:

The Road Safety Observatory reports that young drivers were twice as likely to crash than older drivers, with that jumping up to 5 times more likely when carrying at least 1 passenger. Younger drivers are typically more likely to show off for their friends, and younger passengers might contribute by encouraging this sort of behaviour.

That will be UK data, I presume, so based on drivers over 17, but I don't see why 15 year olds would be less likely to crash than 17 year olds.

She passed her test, but not under those conditions. Has she even driven with chattering younger passengers before?

Could be a 'he'...

To be clear this isn’t a ‘ American’s drive at 15 isn’t that mad?!’ Thread.
Because I understand WHY the age is lower than ours and I understand WHY DN was allowed by the parents to drive ( otherwise DN cant go anywhere, literally without someone giving her a ride, usually them)

It was a purely about whether or not she could take the 2 kids outs in a jaunt. TBH we’ll go back in about a year and DN will be well over 16 and it’ll probably come up again and I’m not sure how I feel!
My gut would still say no, but 16.5 is definitely better than 15.5 years old.

When/if one of my kids gets a licence at 17 and passes the test at that age I do t think I’d be happy with either of them ferrying friends around until they’ve had much more driving experience with me or DP beside the. In the car.

Also, ever seen a 15 year old?!

Maintaining a level head in a high stakes situation, where the possible consequences are death or destruction, is not generally within their remit.

The propensity to distraction, showing off, under or over estimating their own capabilities, and generally making mistakes definitely is.

Driving unsupervised around a city, with two excited children in the car is not an age appropriate activity for 15 year olds.

The passenger thing I find slight odd. A 15.5 year old is restricted to 2 passengers unless they are friends or family going to and from school - in which case you can have more until the age of 21. I’ve just checked.
But the maturity gap for me of a 15.5 year old and a 21 year old is MASSIVE!

You do realise how incredibly dangerous it is for pedestrians? DD was nearly hit (and I mean literal inches away) by a careless driver in the US turning right on a red light, despite the crossing being green for pedestrians. It is an absolutely ridiculous rule and another example of how far the US goes to prioritise drivers at all cost

16.5 is the youngest age to take your test where we live (different state obviously) but I completely agree about the passenger issues. I wouldn’t let DD take any passengers except me or DH for months after she’d passed her test.

A neighbor asked whether DD could drive her child to school soon after she’d passed and I said absolutely not, I wasn’t giving her that responsibility!!

Having been in a major accident in the US (not the driver) definitely not!! Though you can legally fly a small aircraft in Canada at 14.... I know because I've done it.

I'm interested in how your refusal was received, OP?

Nonsense! They do bugger all to get a licence. They can go out one day and come home with a licence!

Also most of the states don't even have any form of MOT! When I lived in Colorado, there were cars driving around BENT

@Pangolin101 Also, you have to have a minimum of so many hours driving experience here now! So your friend's son did NOT!

Really? DD recently passed her test and I’ve never heard of anything like this

@NoOrdinaryMorning @MaloneMeadow I think it varies considerably by state. Where we are, you can’t take your test until 16.5 and plenty fail first time around; you have to have at least 60 hours of supervised driving before you can even take your test; also take and pass driver’s ed. classes.

But that might not be the case in other states. I have to say that the 60 hours’ requirement made me far more comfortable about DD driving, she really did know how to deal with different types of roads and traffic situations. She had about 70 hours when she took her test.

@MaloneMeadow When I passed my test in 2010 they had just brought in a minimum of 40 hours of professional instruction and recommended private practice in addition but wasn't mandatory. Unless it's been taken away since then?

Er, the landmass size of the US is completely irrelevant to the lack of footpaths. In a bigger country (unless very densely populated), the distances between cities is indeed going to be larger, but this has nothing to do with lack of footpaths; nobody is suggesting that people walk between cities!

I'm talking about in the UK

Was this in the US? Definitely nothing like that here in the UK at the minute, although I know there’s a requirement like that in Ireland

@NoOrdinaryMorning Sorry, I thought you were talking about the US as you mentioned living in Colorado.