To think gentle parenting is being taken too far?

[gpbs]

I've got DD 2yo and we meet up with mums with similar age kids from time to time, people I've known since pregnancy or since DD was very small. Examples are taken from some of those mums I know but also some mums I randomly encounter when out and about. Some of them take gentle parenting to the extreme I feel. A few examples:

1. Child A chasing Child B with a stick. Mum A says to Child A "sticks are for looking at, not for hitting" or "gentle hands please". Child A hits Child B with a stick "oh no we don't do that, do we? Hitting is mean!" (Wouldn't you grab the stick out of their hand before they hit?!)

1. Child A snatches the toy off Child B whilst B is holding it. Mum of A says "we don't snatch, do we? Can you give it back? Please give it back? Ok at least say sorry? No snatching please" as Child A walks off with the toy that she's just grabbed

1. One mum told me that she asks her son before brushing his teeth and if he says no, they don't brush it. Because body autonomy. He's 2.5.

1. Child throwing sand around, including at other children, whilst their mum calmly explains that it's best not to and how it would hurt other peoples eyes. Child not paying any attention, sand still being thrown, mum still talking at him. (Wouldn't you move them away from sand so it can't be thrown?)

All examples are things I've seen but all are about different children. Ages 1.5-3 in all.

And I know that's not what gentle parenting is MEANT to be about, but it's how the majority of parents who say they gentle parent actually parent.

It’s tribalism, just the same as teenagers grouping up according to the clothes they wear and the music they listen to and thinking they are superior to the ones who wear something else and listen to something else.

I think it's partly that but as many of these issues with kids it also somehow if you do what I did it validate my actions.

It was certainly mentioned in bf books when parents were unsupportive as a factor - you doing something different can be seen as criticism of them and I think there is some of that round parenting decisions and other parents as otherwise why did I come under such pressure to do what they ie why did they care what I did.

I also wonder if smaller families and less exposure generally to children mean there a lack of comprehension about how different kids can be and that different thing work well with different kids.

I got criticized by a parent for in a joking manner saying to one of mine "because I said so" as you should never say that to a child. They missed the shared humour - DS did laugh and what had led up to it. He'd get into spiral of asking the same question again and again withing a short time frame partly due poor memory and partly wanting reassurance - but having more than just him to to deal with it could get wearing and that was one way to stop it. Same parent the saw whole sequence few days and couldn't understand how I could cope with it and why telling him to just stop didn't work and often really upset him to point he was then very difficult to deal with because their only child didn't behave like that.

It would be an odd and rather boring kid who never got up to mischief! As long as it’s not nasty, destructive or dangerous mischief then you can have a growl about it and laugh (perhaps in private) later.

I am dubious about the gentle parents here who say it’s not understanding the neuroscience which leads to kids doing this, that or the other. Show me the gentle parent with this perfect paragon of virtue child and I will show you how their kid behaves when they are let off the leash!

With the tribalism I think some people need to be special, back when authoritarian parenting was the norm authoritative would have been a bigger deal. Now most parents are more authoritative you have to go more radical to be special. Or just rebrand permissive as the new gentle.

I think it's partly that but as many of these issues with kids it also somehow if you do what I did it validate my actions.

True. Some people can’t help but think everything is about them, and everyone’s behaviour is about them.

Clearly, if I try to do parenting (or anything really) in a certain way, it’s because I think it’s the best or right way. If I thought another way was right, or better, then I’d be trying to do it that way.

That isn’t about anyone else. I’m not offended when people do things differently to me- I might think they are wrong, but I don’t feel threatened or feel I need to justify what I’m doing.

People shouldn’t spend so much energy looking for validation from other people- they aren’t you, they don’t have your kids, they don’t have your experience, they aren’t in your situation and it really really doesn’t matter if they think you are wrong.

@MaturingCheeseball How do you decide when a child’s being mean and spiteful and nasty and when they’re just getting up to normal non-boring mischief that you laugh about? Does it depend on the age of the child or is it entirely based on the behaviour itself?

You don't think that primary teachers who spend decades with children every day haven't spent time organising their thoughts about child development? Really? I'd say being a teacher certainly does give you more insight into children's behaviour, just like I'd respect another professional's opinion within their field. Of course there will be differences of opinion within a profession, but in general I'd think they were basing their opinions on a decent level of experience.

@ZebraDanios I don’t think it’s hard to distinguish; mischief might be eg colouring in the baby with felt tips (yes, it happened!) but spiteful is something like purposely leaving out another child, or saying hurtful things. There was a child at nursery school who, at only 3, picked on dd. I witnessed her saying, “That seat’s taken” wherever tried to sit down and then at a party telling dd that her dress was horrible. Things like that. I’d be interested to know how her “gentle parent” dealt with unkindness.

Some of them, certainly.

I would say that we as a society seem to think that teachers should get the final say on what is right and not right for children at large.

Speaking as someone who home educates their children, I don't agree with this view

Clearly that child was being exposed to nastiness, children aren’t born with a propensity towards saying spiteful things. At 3 I’d presume a lot of it was learned from her parents.

This. What is that child being exposed to to behave in that way? I don't think it would ever even have occurred to my son at the same age to say such things to another child.

This is the thing- teachers are there to be specialists in teaching, not in child development. They will have some understanding, but the majority of their training is in how to teach an average to bright, easy, child and how to manage a classroom, how assessment works, what to teach to cover the curriculum etc.

If I wanted to know how my 9 year olds handwriting compares to his peers, or suggestions on how to teach the 9 times table- I’d ask a teacher.

If I wanted to help my 9 year old son deal with anxiety or peer relationships, or investigate why my 3 year old is having night terrors or is suddenly screaming at the mention of the childminder- I wouldn’t ask a teacher.

They are not necessarily informed on trauma, ACES, neuroscience, disability, neurodivergence, psychology etc.

You said this much more articulately than I did! I totally agree with you.

Maybe the time has come - I'm serious - for some kind of educational training for Mums whilst expecting in addition to birthing but to do with rest of the the 18 years they will be their responsibility.

(Quotes from two different people)

the general perception of “gentle parents” is that they’re a bit superior and judgemental of other parents. My overwhelming experience of people who call themselves “gentle parents” is that they think they’re right 100% of the time, and a large proportion of them will judge you...

There seems a strain of pomposity running through “gentle parenting”. How on earth do they know categorically that they have it absolutely right?

I agree with this too and I think I was def a bit guilty of it when DS1 was very small which was when I was heavily into the gentle parenting identity.

I think this is actually what the crux of the issue is. It's an identity, not a philosophy or a method. That's part of why nobody can agree on what the actual method or philosophy behind it. It's more of an identity and that identity means "We are better, because we don't X" In fact some gentle parenting resources are entirely about what NOT to do or why <common parenting practice everyone thinks is normal> is a problem. (And, again, the "X" that people object to varies, but they are generally similar enough that it tricks people into assuming that all gentle parents are on the same page).

Positioning yourself as a "gentle parent" then, is not so much about what you DO, but about what you DON'T do. It turns it into an in-group vs out-group thing, you get an echo chamber effect too, which bigs up the sense of "We're right and everyone else is wrong" (even though in reality, any specific "gentle parent" will have much in common with various out-group members, and will differ in approach from various other in-group members). There is now quite a good term for this which I like which is "extremely online" which definitely described me then - I was spending much too much time thinking about theory on the internet and not enough time IRL interacting with other parents or, if I'm totally honest, observing my own child.

Even the (online) resources which do say do this instead, are often a bit surface-level or scripts, rather than being very useful practical ideas, mostly because TBH the ideas are not easily explained in a small soundbite or social media post. It's taken me years to fully understand most of the concepts I originally encountered under the label of gentle parenting. This can lead to the "pendulum parenting" someone else way back in the thread described where the "gentle parent" wants to be kind and accepting and gentle but the scripts and things they are trying aren't working so they run out of steam and end up being unnecessarily harsh or frightening. People I have come across who come into these theories without coming from a gentle parenting angle generally have a much easier time integrating them in a sensible way without the pendulum swing or the problems associated with them.

I know that I used to get into this "pendulum" pattern and then I'd feel horrendously guilty, eventually realising that despite all the terrible things I thought about punishment, a calm time out would be 100x better than this. So I started doing that and it was better. I think that was the start of when I stepped out of the gentle parenting bubble and started to get a bit more curious about other approaches, rather than being blindly critical of them. It also coincided with me coming out of the very intense (and also very identity-driven/extremely online) attachment parenting internet community. I never got into the "avoid all plastics/dyes/chemicals" vortex thank god, though I think this is another extremely online thing. I actually think these various identity groups are increasing, and they are easy to fall into as a new mum who maybe doesn't have an IRL community because these online "in group" things really do feel like a supportive community that promote self-development and growth, even though in reality they can be quite isolating by making you feel disconnected from other parents and defensive against outside input.

I posted about the time out realisation at the time - there used to be a regular gentle parenting thread - and one poster replied that she was really upset/disappointed because I'd always inspired her so much and she thought if even I couldn't actually keep up with the gentle parenting then she was worried that it wasn't possible for her either. I think about this a lot (I wonder if she is still here - her child(ren) would be teenage now as well.)

I can't see how this would ever be possible as it would have to start from the assumption that there is one "correct" way of parenting.

That could be worked out by pooling Mumsnetsers! 😂

That could be worked out by polling Mumsnetsers!

The parenting has to fit the child, in any case. One technique will not work for all children.

YES!!!
There is always so much “of course your kids will turn out x if you do y” in these discussions when it’s patently obvious that it’s not that simple or siblings would all end up the same as each other. Everyone in this thread talking about a class full of children who have all been parented in style x are forgetting that children have different temperaments and are not all carbon copies of each other who respond to everything in exactly the same way.

@BertieBotts The 'pendulum parenting' part of your message resonated with me a lot, because I can definitely relate. However, I think it's important to note that 'running out of steam' (for me) means running out of patience/creativity/reasonability/etc, which are all things needed for proper authoritative 'gentle parenting' to go well. Those things are usually in short supply when the parent is overworked, unsupported, stressed from environmental/financial/relationship problems, sleep deprived, ill... Etc.

It's a bit like cry it out style sleep training. People do it when they're pushed to their limit. Most people wouldn't do it if they had the support and resources available to make it unnecessary.

But if you've 'run out of steam' and been scary, that's where you explain afterwards "I'm sorry I snapped and sent you to your room, I'm very tired and I have a lot to think about with the up coming house sale/relocation/grandma in hospital... I'm going to get an early night and make sure I'm in a better mood in the morning for you, okay? It wasn't your fault I snapped like that, I love you".

Repairing after being shitty to your kid is important. It teaches them that 'big' emotions happen even for adults and that there are other circumstances behind those emotions that influenced the scary reaction. It teaches them loads of things, to be honest.

It also means that the brain doesn't file it away under 'traumatic event'.

I’ve just read a post by a lady who owns a nursery on another thread. The chat was about nursery funding, but she explained nurseries would never cope by altering the staff to child ratio as so many of the children are utterly unmanageable and needs 1-to-1s for their, and everyone else’s, safety.

I asked why, and she believes modern parenting has caused untold damage to small children by causing chronic sleep deprivation via refusing to help them self settle (‘it’s biologically normal…’) and giving them hours and hours of screen time alongside no boundaries.

It’s not the first time I’ve heard this. If we did educate new parents we can pretty much unanimously agree it would need to be about the importance of sleep, nutrition, routine, chatting to/playing with your child rather than just using electronic toys and the damage caused by screen time.

But, again, there is no one size fits all approach to parenting and particularly for some children with SEN, advice aimed at neurotypical children is simply not going to be remotely applicable.

I think personally once the state starts telling people how they should parent (beyond the obvious) you're on very dangerous ground.

Also, can we stop with “what the science says” bs please? Yes, there is science out there but the vast majority of it deals with proper, serious trauma and adverse experiences. There is massive inappropriate over extrapolation to bog standard, everyday life, which is the vast majority of the population.

I can’t think of a single child who wouldn’t benefit from routine, good sleep, eating well and so on.

Yes it’s dangerous but where we are headed is even more so - there will be swathes and swathes of adults unable to or incapable of work in 20 years.