Page 15 | National Trust visit spoilt by overzealous staff or AIBU?

Sunshineismyfavourite · 2024-02-20T21:16:51+00:00

Visited a beautiful NT country house today. Huge 17th century house with Capability Brown landscaped parkland. The house has lots of art by Van Dyck - one of my favourite artists and I was really looking forward to spending a couple of hours with DH wandering around in the beautiful spaces enjoying the peace and quiet. However, every time I stopped to look at a painting one of the staff would come up to me and start talking. This happened several times in every room we wandered into. I totally get the enthusiasm and expertise of the staff but I wasn't really interested in hearing about the Civil War etc., I just wanted to enjoy the paintings in peace. We do visit NT properties occasionally but have never found this to be a problem before. The staff just seemed to be unable to read my body language as I was trying to walk away or indicate that I didn't want to talk or listen to them by not responding or engaging with them. Short of telling them to shut up it was impossible. It was a very quiet day with not many visitors so they were probably bored but it was way too much for us. AIBU by being a miserable bugger (I know I'm quite unsociable at times) or should I be allowed to wander round in peace? Perhaps they should give out 'don't talk to me' badges with the tickets if you want to be left in peace!

cookingwithabigail · 22/02/2024 22:42

MamaLazerou · 22/02/2024 21:09

Learn the phrase “I don’t speak English” in a really obscure language.

Even if they then start talking to you in said language look at them like you cannot understand them.

😂😂😂

WigglyVonWaggly · 22/02/2024 22:45

A foreign accent, a baffled smile and ‘no understand’ will get rid of them next time 😁

CelestiaNoctis · 23/02/2024 01:17

They should have badges or stickers. One that indicates you're happy to be approached with more information and one that indicates you'd like quiet enjoyment alone. I'd leave a review with that suggestion and your experience.

EmeraldA129 · 23/02/2024 04:06

Is NT the only organisation in the country that isn’t struggling to recruit & is over staffed?

YANBU op, they should know to observe customers & interact where this is wanted

GoodOldEmmaNess · 23/02/2024 08:05

One amazing house (Lyme Park in Cheshire) had had stuff taken out of some of the rooms to make room for squashy modern sofas, bean bags and toys. I don't pay the whacking charges to visit a toddler group!

Yes, I feel the same about the way in which National Trust properties so often seem like ultra middle class baby and toddler facilities. It's not the children that are the problem but the various odd ways in which they are pandered to. Most of the so called learning activities seem dire and joyless. When kids are wheedled into participating in them I just feel they are destined to be disappointed and put-off of history for life.
It's all so over-processed. When I was little we were just left alone to look at the same stuff as the adults in peace. And there was usually Just One Thing that captured kids' imagination on its own, without adults pushing it at them.
For example, in Raby Castle (not NT but the general point still applies) there was a rug that was the dead hide of the favourite spaniel of the lady of the house. I looked for it last time I was there and the room guide said it had been taken away as "some children found it upsetting".🙄

Trapunt0 · 23/02/2024 08:11

They are usually volunteers not staff so therefore probably also enthusiasts giving up time for this.
I'm a quiet watcher myself so know what you mean but knowing they are not staff does give a different light on it

BaroqueInterlude · 23/02/2024 08:17

I asked her stop while I was trying to check in and she told be she wasn’t allowed to. that they had to talk to everyone checking in. She was going over (I think) some of the terms and conditions.

I should imagine in a theme park they are covering themselves against possible complaints/claims so they don't get sued if someone drops their I-phone 15 pro from the top of a rollercoaster.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 23/02/2024 08:20

bellocchild · 22/02/2024 20:14

We guides do get encouraged to 'Make Visits Meaningful'.

Well, for a start I can decide for myself what makes my visit 'meaningful,' I don't need to be talked at for that; and what might be meaningful to you isn't necessarily what's meaningful to me.

English Heritage are as bad. A friend and I went to Osterley and the only way to end the lecture was walking away - and even then one guide followed us into another room talking. Just let me look at stuff, thanks.

babybythesea · 23/02/2024 08:37

EnidSpyton · 21/02/2024 00:21

Why are adults telling other adults to 'use their words' on this thread? Why are women infantilising other women? Bizarre behaviour.

In answer to the OP, I completely understand and it is so difficult to extricate yourself when someone is in full flow - it IS rude to stop someone talking and not as easy to do as people claim. NT volunteers do need to be better trained but at the same time there's something lovely about people wanting to share their passion, isn't there? You don't want to curb volunteers' enthusiasm, but striking a balance in their interactions with visitors is vital so as not to irritate and actually detract from someone's experience. It's a fine art and I'm not sure it's something you can actually teach, as it relies on the ability to read people.

I'm a frequent NT visitor and when I'm bored of listening to someone telling me about a piece of tapestry I'm not interested in or whatever, as soon as there's a pause in their flow of information, I say 'You're so knowledgeable, I could listen to you all day, but I'm afraid I've only got half an hour and want to make sure I see as much as I can, so I'll have to move on now. Thanks so much' - and walk away briskly. Works every time and no one's feelings are hurt in the process.

The problem with many volunteers is the assumption that you don't know anything about the place you're visiting or the period of history it represents, which I find bizarre when you'd surely operate from the perspective of expecting the people who visit to have an interest in the place/period of history to start off with, otherwise they wouldn't be there. The best tour I've ever had in a heritage attraction was at Cardiff Castle, where the lovely tour guide asked us all what we already knew and what we wanted to know more about before we started. I said to him how rare this was and he told me he'd been humiliated when he first started by lecturing a man about a particular battle or something, and then the man, much embarrassed, had to reveal to him that he was actually the world's leading expert on that battle and was a Professor at Harvard, on holiday. From then on, the volunteer said he always checked first before he started sharing information. I think all NT volunteers need to be told that story as a cautionary tale - ask first!

Edited

I’ve done similar as a very enthusiastic young person in my first job at a zoo. I had to give talks. There was a lady at one talk who came up at the end and asked a specific question about our animals and I answered but then went wider because I loved talking and gave her some ‘back to basics’ information about the species in general. She smiled along. Then my boss showed up and introduced her. Leading expert on the species. I’d read several scientific papers and two books by her. I was split between hero worship and mortification. I learnt a lesson that day and was careful not to go beyond what I’d been asked, and to double check background knowledge rather than making assumptions.

OCDmama · 23/02/2024 08:54

I agree, it really puts me off NT places. If I want information I will ask or find it myself.

I work in the sector and we also have room stewards. We do a LOT of training to avoid the NT problem, and also keep an ear open.

There's also the problem of NT volunteers frequently getting things wrong or embellishing. I worked a project at Attingham and every time the volunteer came through with a tour group she kept changing who the portraits were of - a portrait was the owner's first wife, second wife or mistress.

bellocchild · 23/02/2024 09:34

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 23/02/2024 08:20

Well, for a start I can decide for myself what makes my visit 'meaningful,' I don't need to be talked at for that; and what might be meaningful to you isn't necessarily what's meaningful to me.

English Heritage are as bad. A friend and I went to Osterley and the only way to end the lecture was walking away - and even then one guide followed us into another room talking. Just let me look at stuff, thanks.

Show quote history

As I said, it's not the guides, it's the management! We even get special compulsory online courses on things like this. Where I work, we try to include the details which aren't in the books - but we leave the 'just lookings' alone.

Sennelier1 · 23/02/2024 09:37

You could've politely asked them to leave you to your own experience? "Thank you but I know the history, would just like to enjoy the paintings on my own in peace"?

socialdilemmawhattodo · 23/02/2024 09:46

calicogoose · 21/02/2024 16:53

I was grateful for the intervention of a volunteer at a National Trust property in Oxfordshire. We saw a painting ( not at all good ) of an eighteenth century family connected with the property. I was touched to see a black child amongst the white children and thought they must be a family member or adopted into the family. I mentioned it to a volunteer and she explained the child represented slave plantations in the West Indies. I was shocked and asked why it was on display or why there was no clear explanation and warning to the symbolism in the horrible painting. The NT manager was so sneery about my concerns. It put me right off the National Trust.

Was that a few years ago? I think the heritage organisations have worked hard more recently to include/re-write a lot of the history of properties to ensure that the life stories of the non-royal/non-wealthy/non-white/non-male population are told.

Kittensat36 · 23/02/2024 12:15

Trinity65 · 22/02/2024 20:59

He sounds insufferable

Show quote history

Seeing as this thread is about guides waffling on, I thought it might be faintly amusing for posters to hear about the boot being on the other foot.

cookingwithabigail · 23/02/2024 12:19

GoodOldEmmaNess · 23/02/2024 08:05

One amazing house (Lyme Park in Cheshire) had had stuff taken out of some of the rooms to make room for squashy modern sofas, bean bags and toys. I don't pay the whacking charges to visit a toddler group!

Yes, I feel the same about the way in which National Trust properties so often seem like ultra middle class baby and toddler facilities. It's not the children that are the problem but the various odd ways in which they are pandered to. Most of the so called learning activities seem dire and joyless. When kids are wheedled into participating in them I just feel they are destined to be disappointed and put-off of history for life.
It's all so over-processed. When I was little we were just left alone to look at the same stuff as the adults in peace. And there was usually Just One Thing that captured kids' imagination on its own, without adults pushing it at them.
For example, in Raby Castle (not NT but the general point still applies) there was a rug that was the dead hide of the favourite spaniel of the lady of the house. I looked for it last time I was there and the room guide said it had been taken away as "some children found it upsetting".🙄

Aw, I loved the spaniel rug. Me and dh spent the rest of the day discussing having one made out of each of our pet cats when they passed away and what would visitors make of it 😂

GoodOldEmmaNess · 23/02/2024 12:34

😁Cats would have to be place mats, I think. I've got a terrier, and stuffed with stones or sand he would be quite a good doorstop.

SabrinaThwaite · 23/02/2024 13:18

OCDmama · 23/02/2024 08:54

I agree, it really puts me off NT places. If I want information I will ask or find it myself.

I work in the sector and we also have room stewards. We do a LOT of training to avoid the NT problem, and also keep an ear open.

There's also the problem of NT volunteers frequently getting things wrong or embellishing. I worked a project at Attingham and every time the volunteer came through with a tour group she kept changing who the portraits were of - a portrait was the owner's first wife, second wife or mistress.

We have Attingham visits too - I'm very glad they bring their own tour guide! I am on hand to answer questions though - sometimes I just have to say I'm not sure can I get back to you on that.

cookingwithabigail · 23/02/2024 13:18

GoodOldEmmaNess · 23/02/2024 12:34

😁Cats would have to be place mats, I think. I've got a terrier, and stuffed with stones or sand he would be quite a good doorstop.

😂😂😂

RawBloomers · 23/02/2024 18:35

BaroqueInterlude · 23/02/2024 08:17

I asked her stop while I was trying to check in and she told be she wasn’t allowed to. that they had to talk to everyone checking in. She was going over (I think) some of the terms and conditions.

I should imagine in a theme park they are covering themselves against possible complaints/claims so they don't get sued if someone drops their I-phone 15 pro from the top of a rollercoaster.

This isn’t a way to cover themselves legally because talking at people while they are distracted with something else - especially when you do it that way by design - would not be accepted in a court as an acceptable way to provide warnings. And since it is an ineffective way of providing additional information, it’s not useful in terms of trying to stop people from making mistakes.

In any case it was in the hotel, which is not inside the park, and you don’t have to stay at the hotel into go into the park. So they only have the normal concerns of a hotel, not the concerns of a theme park.

calicogoose · 23/02/2024 19:21

@socialdilemmawhattodo
The NT property was Upton Park, the painting was the Smith Family.
It was last year. I am used to London Galleries and I was taken aback by the curator's casual attitude to the racism on display in the painting. I wrote to the National Trust about it and they simply referred me back to her.
I counted one other person of colour looking around the property.
It is a horrible painting and they need to remove it or have a special section explaining the painting's background and provenance.
I compared the management attitude unfavourably to the Rossetti Exhibition at the Tate last year which dealt sensitively with the slavery issue.
The National Trust needs to deal with the painting properly.

calicogoose · 23/02/2024 19:36

www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/446713

Here it suggests that the unidentified black child is an 'attendant'. Talking to a knowledgeable volunteer, it became clear that the child represents slave plantations.
The National Trust need to do their homework and ask for advice from a more urban gallery such as the Tate on how to deal with links to slavery in their properties.
The volunteer knew a great deal more than the paid curator.

Justifiedcheese · 23/02/2024 23:27

Fanofbrianbilston · 22/02/2024 18:00

Start talking about colonialism/imperialism/the enclosures act and they soon leave you to it 😆 not many of the volunteers are educated about the links with the properties and slavery although occasionally they do have a ‘push’ on those topics.

Make sure it's relevant first. Had a visitor trying to be right on at a place I help with loudly opining that the creator "must have got all his money from the slave trade". He was a) a brewer from a background of woollen drapery ( all England based) b) a leading abolitionist.

EnidSpyton · 23/02/2024 23:34

calicogoose · 23/02/2024 19:36

www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/446713

Here it suggests that the unidentified black child is an 'attendant'. Talking to a knowledgeable volunteer, it became clear that the child represents slave plantations.
The National Trust need to do their homework and ask for advice from a more urban gallery such as the Tate on how to deal with links to slavery in their properties.
The volunteer knew a great deal more than the paid curator.

I'm sorry, but I should think most people are able to look at a portrait of a British family in the 18thc with a Black person in it and work out that probably that Black person symbolises a connection to slavery.

Britain having been involved in the slave trade in the past is not a secret. It's a widely known fact. It has formed the history of many of our towns, cities and cultural and historical institutions. We can't pretend it didn't exist and having evidence of it on display enables us to confront and explore our collective history as a nation.

The NT has actually done a sterling job in many of its properties in recent years to highlight the more troubling episodes in their histories and tell hidden stories of underrepresented people. That being said, I don't think we should really need infantilising signs next to everything to inform us of the bleeding obvious.

ICantbelieveitMeldrew · 23/02/2024 23:41

calicogoose · 23/02/2024 19:21

@socialdilemmawhattodo
The NT property was Upton Park, the painting was the Smith Family.
It was last year. I am used to London Galleries and I was taken aback by the curator's casual attitude to the racism on display in the painting. I wrote to the National Trust about it and they simply referred me back to her.
I counted one other person of colour looking around the property.
It is a horrible painting and they need to remove it or have a special section explaining the painting's background and provenance.
I compared the management attitude unfavourably to the Rossetti Exhibition at the Tate last year which dealt sensitively with the slavery issue.
The National Trust needs to deal with the painting properly.

What is the point you are making about the fact that there was only one person of colour looking around the property? The painting put them off ? It is a thing that people of colour do not enjoy doing? Can you explain?

RawBloomers · 24/02/2024 01:00

EnidSpyton · 23/02/2024 23:34

I'm sorry, but I should think most people are able to look at a portrait of a British family in the 18thc with a Black person in it and work out that probably that Black person symbolises a connection to slavery.

Britain having been involved in the slave trade in the past is not a secret. It's a widely known fact. It has formed the history of many of our towns, cities and cultural and historical institutions. We can't pretend it didn't exist and having evidence of it on display enables us to confront and explore our collective history as a nation.

The NT has actually done a sterling job in many of its properties in recent years to highlight the more troubling episodes in their histories and tell hidden stories of underrepresented people. That being said, I don't think we should really need infantilising signs next to everything to inform us of the bleeding obvious.

Show quote history

I think, given the utter lack of attention to the subject that most people had at school, that you are incorrect in your assumption that most people would know without it being spelt out. They’d be more likely to think it was in keeping with recent casting in historical dramas that has tried to integrate people of colour into the narrative in positive ways, either through colour blind casting or by providing a backstory in keeping (though often sanitized) with the times.