What does your network think about trans people?

[deeter]

Immediate family think it's all a bit silly, trans people should be treated well but you cannot change sex. Women's spaces should be protected etc.

But interestingly all of my university friends think trans women are women (did go to a London uni with well to do sorts).

I'm 31 btw.

@StolenCookie

For trans people and supporters like me, biology and sex are irrelevant. You can be assigned female or male at birth and realise later on that it doesn’t fit with your gender identity.

What does this actually mean though? I don't know if my gender identity matches my biological sex because no one can ever explain what gender identity is.

An individual’s sense of their “true” identity should not impose on my safety as a woman. And I am not implying that I fear being sexually assaulted by trans women. I just do not want my female only space where I feel safe to discuss past traumas (SA) to be violated (that is how it feels) by individuals who spent most of their lives living and being treated as men with all that entails.

I used to be on the other side of this debate but once I experienced the intrusion for myself I am afraid I found it intolerable.

please tell me why those individuals are insistent on being included in women’s spaces and why they do not want to campaign for and establish spaces of their own. You seem equipped to speak to this so please explain this to me.

I wasn't 'assigned' my sex at birth, I just am. What's all this 'assigned', as if someone guesses and then later its checked and changed.

You cannot change your biological sex is factual. You can chose one of over 150 genders, fine pick one as live as that. However, biological sex matters and I don't want men in safe spaces with biological woman and girls. It's not for others to decide.

On a separate issue why do trans women dress so stereotypically, like in the stetches on TV, 'I'm a lady you know', swishes hair, twirls skirt and twindles ear rings. It's almost as if they have no idea other than a caricature of what a woman is, because they don't actually know ie guesswork!

I wasn't 'assigned' my sex at birth, I just am. What's all this 'assigned', as if someone guesses and then later its checked and changed.

Didn't you know that midwives just toss a coin?

It is also very important to start pointing out that the safety concerns women have also extends to female sports categories.

For all those saying ‘I am fine with male people accessing female single sex spaces’, where are your limits?

Changing rooms? women’s refuges? Prisons? Any limitation on this means that you are not ‘live and let live’ unconditionally. You just have the privilege of not seeing toilets as an issue.

Most of the UK population (consistent across the western world to be fair) also don’t believe that male people should be in female sports categories. For both safety and fairness.

I stand by my position that Mumsnet is a transphobic space. Trans communities are warned not to come here, that they will not be welcomed. I don’t see how any of you can characterise the debate on this thread as welcoming or even neutral towards trans people. We’ve even had a diagram posted above of body parts. How is this discussion not transphobic honestly.

Also, characterising a view as phobic/racist/problematic is not the same as calling someone stupid, and all the other names I’ve been called here. I may not agree with all of you but not once have I name called.

The comment I made about the screaming and frothing was not my finest moment, but it’s honestly how it feels when I get comment after comment, sometimes in ALL CAPS, of how stupid, evasive and illogical I am. In other discussions I’ve been repeatedly called a ‘handmaiden’, a ‘hater of women’ and my identification as a feminist caused an absolute furore. Of course I can’t be a feminist, I ‘clearly hate women’ and want women to be raped and assaulted, etc etc etc…

I don’t agree with any of your views, but I do try my best to disagree respectfully as much as I can.

Sadly, I think it is. I believe that all these people were at the back of the queue when intelligence was being handed out. I believe they have spent their entire lives struggling to think well or effectively, they're just not very good at it. Their critical thinking skills? Best not to even go there.

I think that's why StolenCookie simply ignores certain posts because she doesn't actually fully understand them? But I think she likes the sense of superiority that advocating these nonsense TWAW beliefs makes her feel?

On here she's surrounded by women who are obviously more intelligent, more informed and more articulate. It's a bit like watching a cat play with a mouse. But while she can keep dogmatically repeating this waffle she can delude herself that she's (at last) better, sharper than those around her.

Always plenty of space for slightly dim people on the moral high ground.

The saddest fact is that (obviously) the vast majority of supposedly trans women know they're not really women. And they're no doubt laughing up their sleeves at posters like StolenCookie who earnestly defend them. And finally, that the educated, intelligent 'trans women' would think StolenCookie clearly wasn't very good at thinking either.

They're smirking all the way into women's safe spaces.

Categorising people as transphobic when they are not, is indeed name calling. It is also a form of abuse. It is not respectful.

I stand by my position that Mumsnet is a transphobic space

But ultimately, all you mean by that is that the women on here aren't just swallowing the idea that men can be women if they feel like it.

Thats all 'transphobia' means nowadays

Don't forget calling women 'bigots' for wanting sex protected spaces

I work directly with young people in a mental health service. Similar position to a teacher in having contact with more young people than those in my immediate family/friendship circle. My impression is the younger generation, as a whole, are much more flexible in their ideas of gender and much more open and accepting of different identities. They’re much more likely to identify as trans or non binary than my own peers growing up. This is a trend that is likely to continue.

You think this was the answer of a feminist, in any way?

Do you really?

So if we categorise Andrew Tate as a misogynist and he disagrees, we’ve abused him?

How inconvenient.

And by the way, have you found any current evidence that proves your statement of 'The overwhelming majority of trans people who transition are happy with their decision and are able to live more fulfilling lives as a result.' that disproves the WHO, Dr Cass, and other health organisations. Plus that flips around that discredited study from Branstrom to prove their falsely claimed conclusion? Care to tell the gender clinicians who have stated that 26% of their patients have regret?

Or will you just continue to spread that misinformation?

Because you completely ignored everything that I posted, it seems. And really, if you just stuck to speaking your opinion and stopped trying to tell others that they are hateful and that they are ignorant and all the other tactics you have tried here, then no problem.

But you did not just post your opinion you posted misinformation.

Can we have a definition of transphobia @StolenCookie

If he was not a misogynist and we did that to shame him for speaking about something, yes.

Do you see the difference?

Women discussing the needs of women where they conflict with a group of male people's demands = not transphobic.

Andrew Tate, a proven predator who abuses female people = a misogynist.

You again have provided a false comparator to try to defend your own person actions and opinions.

So, you directly work with young people. And you have such poor knowledge of safeguarding?

And you then claimed to be somehow a victim when I pointed out that this was a concern?

I am thankful that you have answered. But it really shows your posts in a very concerning light.

I am sorry, just saying 'but I was just talking about their opinions' does not remove your poor safeguarding knowledge from being commented on. It is no defence at all.

If you were taking a group of mixed sex teenagers on an away trip, would you or wouldn't you allow a male person to sleep in the same room as a female person based on their gender?

This is terrifying. StolenCookie is the very, very last person who should be working with teenagers who have mental health issues.

The TRAs flock to jobs like that like crows to carrion.

It was how I first discovered the TRA movement.

Do the views that you are posting here come up with the children?

Ie do you say to them trans women are women purely based on a feeling?

How much are they exposed to your views?

My impression is the younger generation, as a whole, are much more flexible in their ideas of gender and much more open and accepting of different identities.

Do you think this new found acceptance just happened organically?

It’s not my job to share my politics or opinions with young people. If they identify as trans then I respect that.

If I refused to call someone by their chosen name/pronouns, I’d lose my job.

What views of mine do you not agree with?

That people with transgender identities most certainly deserve to be safeguarded?

That people with transgender identities should not be illegitimately discriminated against?

That people with gender identities never change sex, which is coded into their cells and will never be changed?

I don’t know what makes a woman. There isn’t a checklist.

There really, really is.

Your point about Rose West does not stand. When pp are pointing out the wrongdoing of the male class, they are doing so from a statistical viewpoint. They are pointing out the much greater likelihood of men committing these crimes. Safeguarding is based on these statistics.

Knowing that a trans woman is a man is not an ideology however much you want it to be.

I think this highlights how confused we are as a society. The way I see it, either a man can become a woman or they can't, it's a yes/no fact. That's what we need to decide as a society - can it be done or can't it. If yes, they should be treated as a woman and have the same access to women's spaces, prisons, sports teams and so on as someone born female. If no, then they shouldn't be treated as women or receive recognition of such in any form.

The current position of "they an be a woman in this circumstance but not that one" is what causes the problem. Resolve the basic issue and everything else goes away.