Why is Starmer Standing by Azhar Ali?

[Dogfisher]

AIBU to think that he should be out on his ear for his blatant anti-Semitism? I actually thought that Starmer was dealing with this in the LP - but this seems to suggest otherwise.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/12/labour-criticised-for-backing-rochdale-candidate-after-offensive-israel-remark

That's a really interesting take.
Ashamed.
I feel my views are balanced. My views are not negative about who any individual or group of people, who they are intrinsically, their beliefs, lifestyle etc
I hold negative views about those whose actions I consider morally wrong, regardless of what community, religious or otherwise, they belong to.
I do not feel that those who hold different beliefs to me should feel ashamed and quickly label them to be discriminatory.
I hold human life and wellbeing to be higher than any religious or cultural belief.
If you feel I should be ashamed of that perspective that is how you feel.
I would argue that you have internalised some preconceived ideas that you consider to be fact such as the idea that anyone criticising Israel or those who support their actions must be doing so under the influence of prejudice against Jews as opposed to an objective judgement.

Do you believe that Ali was wrong and that his words were anti-semitic?

I think he's words may have been wrong as he had not fact checked.
I do not believe he was antisemitic.

Whilst we are firing closed questions based on assumed beliefs, do you believe that Israel's genocide against the Palestinians to be justified?

I don't know his reasoning, but I can only imagine that this bloke is very popular in his constituency and KS is banking on it being more beneficial to support him than not. Of course, nationally the decision will be very damaging for him. No politician should be calling for the death of innocent people simply based on their race. It's grim and vile. I don't know what KS stance is on going to war. I'm scared he might be like Blair on that but who knows.

Well it certainly isn't short of posters who are willing to sail in and tell everyone else what their opinions are and why they are terrible people.

@HelloWorldItsNiceToMeetYou that's an emotive question.

I think he's words may have been wrong as he had not fact checked.
I do not believe he was antisemitic

He said that Israel 'deliberately took the security off ' and 'allowed the massacre' to happen. And you think that he should/could have fact checked this?

He said that Labour's suspension of another MP was 'driven by people in the media from certain Jewish quarters'. And you think that had he 'fact checked' he would not have said this?

Either you are extremely naive or something much worse but you seem unable to recognise anti-semitic tropes when they are staring you in the face.

It's quite factual.
As arguably was the question asked of me.
If you ask such questions of others you should be prepared to answer them.
Or should different people be treated differently?

It's an interesting point but basically I would not want to be represented by Ali or indeed someone on the other extreme, ie pro Israeli to the point of groupthink. I understand from the polling in Rochdale that for Muslim voters, Gaza is the number one issue. The UK has big problems if it's voters think like this, rather than focussing on local and national issues. It's a recipe for a divided society and it's not even one the UK can do much about. Look at the mess we are in, and yet this is apparently relevant.

There’s much ‘nuance’ around antisemitic conspiracy

Why do you want there to be?

What antisemitic conspiracy do you want to air?

@bombastix Exactly, we are in a right mess and we seem to get waylaid in culture wars and cancelling others.

You will clearly see everyone who disagrees with you as seeing things through 'antisemitic tropes'.
I feel that the negative comments about Israel's actions (including claims that they may have allowed events to happen) come from disgust at their actions so far, and their actions so far indicating that this wouldn't be unthinkable. There is a guardian article linked up thread around why this is a credible theory, and it isn't because the Israeli happen to be Jews, fit negative tropes etc.
You feel that such negative accusations against Israel could only come from prejudice and anti semitism.

I also note that you have dodged a question which gets to the heart of where your opinions emanate from...

Rochdale is a very bad sign. You have George Galloway targeting this enraged Muslim vote. Division. Simon Danczuk for Reform which will be tacitly anti Islam, and then Ali who is morally useless. This is a pattern of division we could have in many other places in the UK. Very concerning

I also note that you have dodged a question which gets to the heart of where your opinions emanate from...

I am genuinely not sure what you mean by this? Can you please explain?

In answer to your question no, I do not think that what the Israeli govt is doing now is justified.

He said that Labour's suspension of another MP was 'driven by people in the media from certain Jewish quarters'. And you think that had he 'fact checked' he would not have said this?

Can you answer my question above please HelloWorld? I suppose that this is also not an anti-semitic trope? 🙄

I agree. We are in for much more division. It’s similar I suppose to the trans issue in that it’s almost impossible to have a stance on it without greatly offending one ‘side’. The reason it’s a big issue for British Muslims is because Britain is actively supporting the massacre of thousands of innocent people. If we’re were a neutral bystander I don’t think it would have the same impact. For example the ethnic cleansing that’s going on in China isn’t a massive political issue here. It’s a very difficult situation for labour and they will lose votes over this. They’ve already lost 100’s of councillors haven’t they. Which is what prompted this meeting.

And are their actions unjustified because they are Jewish, or because they are awful human beings.
This is what people are getting at...there will be someone along in a minute to tell you that holding that view is antisemitic.
That is the source of the outrage, that open discussion and debate is being shut down with shouts of antisemitism.
You don't hold that view because are disgusting and you should not feel ashamed of it.
Can you see why the discussion of Israel's verified and claimed actions need to be discussed without shouting antisemitism every time a view that people disagree with is expressed if it happens to involve people who happen to be Jewish.

But there has been well documented claims from some Jewish groups (and I emphasise some) that to criticise Israel is antisemitic.

That is factually correct.

Division isn’t just in the UK

It will be hard for any society not to have similar views come to the surface

As many EU countries and US are finding out

HelloWorld I notice that you ignore my question re the Jewish control of the media.

Also nowhere on this thread has anyone said that criticising the govt of Israel is anti-semitic.

Unfortunately it is clear what you believe from your posts. I also find you to be very disingenuous so will leave others to engage with you from now on.

It seems we can only be anti semitic these days- you can't be anti Islamic though

I have looked through everything you have liked and posted and can't find any reference to Jewish control of the media.
Just reference to some groups being vocal, which I agree there are some very vocal groups on both sides of the conflict.
I have missed this.phrase can you link to it specifically, because it does feel like this is your interpretation.
And if you have negative experiences of people applying that trope to you or people in your community, I understand how that has happened.
Of I have missed a phrase in the articles and quotes ( I have read them quickly) I stand corrected but I have looked again and cannot see any reference to 'Jewish control of the media'. Of I have missed that do you want to quote the phrase or paragraph where you have seen that phrase?

I think most people would find both abhorrent.
I think this is an example of you doing what you accuse others of, peddling tropes.

Who on earth is blaming Jews worldwide for Israel's actions?

There was a post earlier in the thread that did exactly that.

It's interesting that you popped up shortly after the poster talking about Jews controlling the media disappeared.