Weighting for the backlash

[quisensoucie]

Weighing aeroplane passengers is not a new phenomenon, so the 'fat-shaming' trope is rather misplaced
'In the early days of air travel, Airlines frequently weighed passengers and even crew to properly balance the smaller, less sophisticated aircraft, according to the Smithsonian.

Passenger weight can have an impact on another aspect of flying: seat size.'
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/then-amp-now-a-weighty-matter-46320857/&ved=2ahUKEwi8--2O452EAxU2a0EAHa-9B8sQFnoECCsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw36nIvu41LW3mTW1jC32O9v

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airlines-weigh-passengers-check-in-baggage-cargo-balance-a8860071.html

This is a safety issue, not about making larger people pay more. But again, the science and physics are dismissed because 'feelings'

The flight company local to my area (yes only one flies there) has different allowances than the norm, especially on the smaller flights, so for anyone flying to remote locations or city hop type locations which are on smaller planes might be advised to check the baggage allowance for individual parts of the flight.
Even bigger airlines sometimes operate much smaller flights on certain routes.

@notimagain The fact that there are a lot more passengers crammed in, as you admit, shows that the weight of the passengers is not a genuine issue.

A lot of the comments on Mail Online, not MumsNet, were just unvarnished fat shaming. I wonder if all those trolls are really such perfect individuals?? Some seem to truly relish the idea of humiliating others.

Oh, of course BMI is not related in to whether someone is a menace or not.
How unbelievably stupid to get so deliberately off your face (in any way) on a flight that you are a danger to yourself and those around you.

I don't want to humiliate anyone, but I also don't want someone next to me who is effectively sitting in my seat and theirs - this is why airlines need a firm and clear policy for anyone of size, not so shame them but to ensure the comfort (as far as possible) of all passengers.

Yes, like maybe providing adequate seating?

Well that's one of the options.
Until all planes have more generous seating there needs to be other solutions.

I worked for a holiday company, so mainly dealt with charter flights and scheduled airlines from/to major cities, the only time we dealt with “small planes” were when we booked cruises from Southampton with FlyBe flights, but even then they were allowed the full allowance. This was mid 2000s until about 2013 though.

I personally don't like sitting next to someone who is obese and spilling on to my seat. It's unfair as my journey is made uncomfortable, it's difficult to get up and stretch my legs if they are by the aisle etc.

Hate to prick your balloon but them's already the rules with the majority of air lines.

me neither. an 11 hour flight. I had half the seat. The other half was occupied by my next door passenger’s excess flesh

It would never be part of any accident response planning for 1 person to have to carry or manoeuvre another person. It would be a multiperson job.
If multiple people are required to lift a piece of luggage, it costs the company money as the processing rate is slower. Most passengers travel with luggage, therefore there will be many bags to move from each flight.
The 2 incidents are not in any way comparable.

What about manspreading? Plenty of men on public transport throw their legs wide and spread into other people’s space. Should men be banned? Surely the answer is big enough seats for everyone?

@TorringtonDean

The fact that there are a lot more passengers crammed in, as you admit, shows that the weight of the passengers is not a genuine issue.

Not sure what your argument is with that TBH...

Weight to some extent sure as heck is a genuine issue (you actually want the aircraft to get airborne and have enough fuel to get from A to B don't you?) but when you buy a ticket you are paying for a lot more than just the fuel used to carry you.

Most of your ticket price goes towards fixed expenses such as aircraft leasing, landing fees, ground handling, navigation charges....the number of passengers is almost irrelevant to those charges.

Fundamentally I can be an old fashioned airline, have massive seat pitch and fly 100 people from A to B at 70's prices.... or I can be a modern LoCo, fly 200 people, use a tiny bit more fuel doing so (weight), but charge people just about half the price of the old style outfit (because I'm splitting the non-fuel costs between 200 passengers instead of 100).

When you look at everything involved it's almost a miracle tickets on modern commercial flights are actually as cheap as they tend to be ATM....

Right, but Flybe flew to a lot of destinations, including some of the locations our local airline flies to. It does no harm to check ahead.

OK, some people might have to lift you.

That's good, however responses here indicate they're maybe not properly adhered to.

If airlines were worried about passenger feelings, they wouldn’t be charging 4 euros for a small packets of peanuts.

'In the early days of air travel, Airlines frequently weighed passengers and even crew to properly balance the smaller, less sophisticated aircraft, according to the Smithsonian.

Which part of smaller and less sophisticated aircraft did you miss from this early practice?

Remember when even turning on your mobile phone during a flight could put it at risk from falling out of the sky and now if you pay xxx amount for crappy on board wifi.

Weighing passengers would be an impractical and costly solution for a problem that the airlines clearly aren’t that concerned about. I suspect the airlines already use sophisticated algorithms to ensure that the weight of passengers don’t destabilise their aircraft.

Do you really think that someone totting up the weight of passengers before they board is really going to help? I’m not sure what you point is but airline safety isn’t it.

FWIW at my heaviest, I never "spilt over" into anyone elses seat! (My weight loss is now into double figures) I am also 5' 11" and my height didn't mean I spread out my legs and feet into the foot space next to me either!) Nor have I ever done so on a train or bus for that matter!)
I do think whole seating arrangement on planes needs to be given an overhaul, even for people of what would be classed a normal height and weight, I've known issues. They need to take out the reclining seats on short haul flights! That impinges on other passengers comfort for a start!
And the baggage allowance also needs looking at! For a 22kg allowance on Jet2, I only ever used 11kg! What the hell do people take in their suitcases to need that much?! I had more than plenty for 2 weeks away at 11kg! And coming back, I never went over 14 or 15kg! Lower the baggage allowance, the plane weight will be lower, or is that common sense?

@AgentJohnson

I suspect the airlines already use sophisticated algorithms to ensure that the weight of passengers don’t destabilise their aircraft.

They and the regulators who monitor all this certainly do..it's not just a case of guessing a weight.

For info:

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/Weight%20Survey%20R20090095%20Final.pdf

@notimagain my point about the weight is that if a plane was made to seat, say 300, passengers all of average weight and that was all it could take then to cram in 360 or whatever would obviously be a danger. But they keep cramming in lots of extra passengers compared to decades ago. So, although there is a maximum weight capacity, it is obviously very much higher. There is also the baggage on top of that.

It’s interesting to see the hatred some people have for their fellow humans. I personally don’t want to sit next to all sorts - druggies, drunks, smokers (remember it used to be allowed on flights), noisy babies (even though I had my own in the past), people with bad breath. I put up with other people in order to get where I am going.

Another solution would be to stop airlines cramming people on like cattle DH and I are both healthy BMI and neither of us find short haul air travel comfortable. If you look at seat sizes and leg room over the last 30 years it has decreased. It would affect their profits though, selling fewer tickets to give each passenger more space, so I guess we won't be seeing that

My point is not about individual luggage allowance; it was stating that no airline permits normal luggage exceeding 32kg per item. Some obviously have lower limits but baggage handlers don’t lift over 32. Lower limits were irrelevant to my point.

@TorringtonDean

my point about the weight is that if a plane was made to seat, say 300, passengers all of average weight and that was all it could take then to cram in 360 or whatever would obviously be a danger. But they keep cramming in lots of extra passengers compared to decades ago. So, although there is a maximum weight capacity, it is obviously very much higher. There is also the baggage on top of that.

No, airlines are not just cramming in seats regardless of legal weight limits, it doesn’t work like that.

First issue is that if you are trying to compare 70s with now is it’s different aircraft…for example early marque 737s would have had a much lower maximum allowable take-off weight than a newer model 737…

If you’re looking at changes more recently the builders and the airlines can (sadly) find the weight to cram more seats in by reducing aircraft weight in other areas - e.g. make galleys smaller and lighter..it’s pretty obvious that has gone on if you look at some of the new Airbus NEOs where the galley space and toilet space at the back is tiny.

With the bigger stuff (like the big Long Haul types) carrying say 300 plus it’s not uncommon to see perhaps 300 seats one varient verses say 360 in another, 340 in another, but again you stay below maximum weight for the type by changing the cabin configuration, perhaps taking galleys and toilets out and being aware that sometime you might have to reduce the amount of underfloor cargo that can be carried if all the seats are full…it is all carefully monitored and checked for every single flight….

Fundamentally to go back to your original point extra seats are not being shoe horned into aircraft without any regard to the rules covering issues such as maximum allowable weights….

Lower limits are relevant to flying in general.

Well obviously, but this isn’t a post about luggage allowances, and none of my posts have been about lower luggage allowances. My comment was regarding the maximum weight permitted to be lifted by ground staff, which is universal and disregards any airlines individual baggage allowance.
Even when airlines (mainstream charter/scheduled airlines that is, no speaking for the tiny local ones as I never really dealt with them) have lower baggage allowances, you can go over them, it just costs you more.
Star Alliance used to allow 32kg; but you could not exceed that under any circumstance.
Even if a particular airline has an allowance higher than 32kg, you still would have to split this into two cases, or book it as “oversized baggage”
I only once ran into an issue in the 12 years I worked in travel; and this was only because the customer didn’t follow the very clear instructions and tried to pool their whole families allowance into a huge bag, which obviously exceeded 32kg.