Doctors right to strike, should it be removed?

[DistinguishedSocialCommenator]

Hello
Several people within our families are doctors. Most started out wanting to care for people, but as time goes on, the reality of money, and spending comes into play for some.

PM Rishi Sunak in a tv interview partly balmed doctors strikes for failing to bring down hospital waiting lists. I rarely agree with a politician but in this case, I know he is right. EG, myself, my OH, one of our children and grandchildren have had their appointments cancelled because of strike impacts. Our children and grandchildren do have private healthcare but those do not cover pre-existing or you end up on the NHS with chorionic conditions.

Our police officers and armed forces personnel are not allowed to strike

AIBU to expect a no-strike agreement for doctors and possibly nurses. If agreed, give them 9 months' notice about no-strike agreements. I honestly believe hardly anyone would leave and those leaving would have possibly left the NHS anyway as some do and go to another country just like we get doctors from abroad. Their pay claims could be easily managed in the same way police/armed forces pay rises are managed as well of those MP's.

Failing to bring down hospital w/l lies with the present government and the growing of these waiting lists, the doctor's strikes have certainly made things a lot worse. We are regularly hearing on our news media about growing waiting lists and people waiting for urgent treatments and the waiting times in A&E departments etc

AIBU to feel that doctors should be made to sign a no-strike agreement with a few month's notice to have the no-strike agreement in place before next winter? Also, have a pay body set up like the ones our MP's enjoy.

If everyone, always, only started a job whereby they were resigning themselves never to undertake to improve or change the conditions under which their labour was offered, we'd have no workers rights/holidays/maternity leave at all.

"wind up" it looks as though you are on one. Has no one ever thaught you just becuse you disagree with another point of view, you need to put your argument forward without trying to insult the other?

I'm "furious" that NHS staff are striking, just ask those who have had appointments cancelled because of this.

You cite someone moved to Australia - you cite their pay but you fail to mention cost of living. Indeed at different times in our history, different countrys may have better pay, lifestyles etc.

Why do you think we get people, NHS staff doctors/nurses?ot's/pt's/dietitians/radiographers/etc/etc coming to the UK from New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, and India etc etc e tc.

I've asked this question before to those who come out making similar comments like yours as you don't really have an answer to my question. EG, Why are UK citizens still opting to become doctors if it is as bad as you say it is?? Yes, that's right, you like the others don't have an answer.

@DistinguishedSocialCommenator Why do you think we get people, NHS staff doctors/nurses?ot's/pt's/dietitians/radiographers/etc/etc coming to the UK from New Zealand, Australia, South Africa,

We don't... It's mainly Nigeria now in my area. Some Indian nurses. Very few nurses or AHPs from English-speaking countries, everyone's going the other way.

Why are UK citizens still opting to become doctors if it is as bad as you say it is??

Historically high status, conditioned into this at school if they're a high achiever, idealism, a desire to help people, not fully understanding how bad things are... That's just a few of the reasons. How long will they last, is the real question

Your thanks won't improve patient safety, reduce waiting lists or pay a health worker's bills.

Everything before the 'however' is condescending BS.

Why do we train to work for NHS? Because it's in our genes to want to help people. We strike when our workload becomes so excessive we no longer can provide safe and compassionate care at all times. Remember how difficult it was to fill up the car with petrol in autumn 2021? What did supermarkets do? They gave truck drivers £10k as a sign-in bonus. The problem was solved in a few weeks. This government could do the same if they chose to. As for the lack of funds- they spend billions bombing remote parts of the world. This money should be spent at home

Thank you, I appreciate that

I've posted before, it is historical people will want to move to another country for a better life

You may recall years ago nurses started going to Saudia Arbia and Dubia, but it was short-lived.

One of our children as a specialist if IT moved to the USA, they had a great job here but half the pay and their salary is.was in top 5% - however, they did get double the money but the family was in England so returned

Sorry, not "everyone is going the other way." and you in your post has demonstrated that.

I posted at 13-16 today a link re madatory retention of newly qualified staff sdocs on the whole - if we the taxpayers are paying for their training in my view they should work here for x number of years - read my post at 13-16 I think it was and a new item from Jeremey Hunt the then health secretary.

Absolutely not. Once we lose the right to strike the country has gone to poop. Don’t criticise till you have walked a mile in their shoes

Your post was at 13.21 and is as ill-informed as the rest of your posts I'm afraid. Doctors have to do two post-qualification years anyway. By forcing them to do another two all you'd do is invest time, money and resources training them to a better standard before they leave, if that's what they plan to do. Also, how do you force them to stay? Are you going to provide the training places for them? Or pay them locum rates?! Take it on the chin that you're wrong, and go and educate yourself.

You obviously had no issue with burn out in your career. No doctor and no nurse start their training for money. Simply because there are easier ways of making money. We start our training because we want to help alleviate suffering. People burn out and leave when they can't do it. The alternative is suicide. Why wouldn't you google up the story of Rose Polge, a junior doctor who took her own life the day after Jeremy Hunt imposed new contracts on doctors. Keeping people in jobs again their will is not going to cut down waiting lists. You are not going to stop people from going on sick leave to protect their physical and mental health.

F1s earn £15.33 an hour. They have debt of £100,000, and will repay £250,000 before their student loan is done. Not sure how they 'owe' anyone anything. They now face unemployment after F2 as there are not enough jobs (lack of funding, not need). Training as it is (an hour a week) is often cancelled due to lack of staff.
Take away their right to strike ? Well Australia already says its biggest medical school is the NHS.
Why does this country hate doctors so much ?

It's not ok to be exploited because you "wanted to look after people," or whatever the "many doctors " in your family did. It's a really sad state of affairs that you think like this, especially if you really have healthcare professionals in your family.

Also, you'll reap what you sow. The NHS will be staffed by allied health professionals and the doctors really will leave. Unless you want them to be chained to the NHS, which I'm sure you probably do.

OP, the manager of the ward I worked on during the nurse’s strikes received an email detailing the minimum “safe staffing” levels they must maintain while the strikes were ongoing.

If nothing else tells you how dire the conditions of the NHS are at the moment, let this be it: the “safe staffing” they wanted to be maintained during the strikes was more nurses than we had on the average day shift.

There aren’t enough staff. It’s as plain and simple as that. They need to improve working conditions to attract staff or else it’s just going to continue to get worse. The government aren’t forthcoming with improvements so we have to strike for them.

Last year more than half of new doctors joining the UK medical register were international. However there are problems with relying on a majority immigrant workforce to provide an essential service, especially doctors as it takes so long to reach consultancy. It has been shown that international doctors are more likely to leave the UK than domestic graduates, unsurprisingly as they are a self-selected group that leave for better opportunities and they do not have close ties to the UK. As some of these countries' economies improve we will see doctors return to Pakistan and India for example. This makes your workforce less stable.

Internationally-trained doctors have greater variability in competency when they come to the UK, whereas UK training is relatively standardised. The exam for foreign graduates to enter the UK has been criticised for being too easy - but why would that be looked at when the government is pushing en-masse international recruitment in response to historic poor workforce planning. Many international doctors have English as a second/third language and honestly sometimes don't meet the standard required for such a communication-heavy job. The majority are absolutely great, but these issues cannot be addressed while there is a conflict of interest. The NHS spends money on overseas recruitment, visa sponsorship and bringing international hires up to speed in the NHS to ultimately produce a less predictable and stable workforce. It's not the best solution.

@mumsneedwine when the current Health Minister refers to junior doctors as "trainees as I like to call them" it's pretty clear that the culture of contempt for doctors starts at the top. It trickles down through the filter of a shameful media. A number of the Great British electorate are either too selfish/small-minded/not switched on enough or just can't be bothered to find out what's really going on and believe the rhetoric. Yet there are also many ordinary people who are still very grateful for our medics. Let's hope they vote with that in mind.

I would bail out now, OP.
You clearly haven’t got a clue about doctors’ workloads and their pitiful pay.
I also didn’t cite ‘someone’ moving to Australia in my previous post, I made it clear it’s my daughter - 3rd year junior doctor. Earning double pay there but not got double cost of living, also very well staffed and supported in hospitals there.

@StrongWhite it's so sad. The NHS is being destroyed in front of our eyes and doctors seem to be surplus to requirements. Even though they earn less than their assistants. Someone somewhere is making money from this. Not doctors. They can't heat their homes (which they have to change every 4-6 months).

Sunak has no intention to solve the strikes

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/06/rishi-sunak-accused-of-personally-holding-up-deal-to-end-doctors-strikes

@DuncinToffee my feelings towards that weasel are not publishable. I hope he never needs A&E. Private hospitals don't have those 😡🤬. He (or his wife) will be making money out of it all somewhere.

Can’t live on our passion and love for our jobs though can we. Nor can we support our families

The NHS is haemorrhaging allied health professionals too so good luck with that. 😂

You aren’t paying for anything. Why should doctors stay here they have no reason to stay here. They have massive loans, work for nothing in the NHS for years and then get treated like crap having less qualified PAs and AA’s who have a 2yr diploma, for which the junior doctors, are ultimately responsible and who are paid at least 30% to 40% more than them after only 2 years.
Educate yourself!

Because it's a great profession in every other country than the uk. Soeaking to n F2 recently not one person in his year is planning to stay.

YABU.
if you are a from a family of doctors as your say you must clearly understand the absolute shit show that the NHS doctors and nurses and healthcare are in.
I am a nurse and for 20 years and you are the first person from a 'family of doctors' I've ever heard to not want to back docors and NHS staff which makes me think you are far removed from it
The government continue to blame wait lists on strikes but it's is not all down to this.
My adult son was referred to ENT after 4 consultations and eventually referred mid covid.
ENT at our local hospital already had a 9-12 month backlog wait then. Due to a poor referral from the GP he waited 18 months.

I was seen by ENT in 2018. Also pre covid. 5 month wait.

Our local trust waiting list is 18 week wait time for ROUTINE appointments. That means the trust have 18 weeks in which to see a patient. This has been the case since 2015
My daughter was referred to a dermatologist for acne PRE covid. Waiting time 9 months.

Junior doctors approx earn £14.50 an hour! They are saving lives not pushing pens!
NHS wages and pension have reduced over years. Already very little incentive to remain.
GP's are leaving at an increased rate.
I fully support the strike as whether they do or don't. The waiting lists won't go away!

Do you not recall that pre covid, consultants were made to cancel clinics and operations to 'support the wards' due to increased demand of winter pressures?