To think middle schools should be introduced in the UK?

[Serrina]

The transition from primary school to high school is very difficult for a lot of children at 11 and there's very little preparation for it. Somehow they're expected to jump from a nurturing primary school environment - which is often like a second home to many children, and spending the day in their own classroom with their own teacher and all their friends, then all of a sudden to a regimental high school system of registration, then having to go to different classes at various points in the day, with little more than a couple of minutes to get from one class to another and being penalised if they're "late" despite the fact the next class may be at the opposite end of a huge building than their previous one.

They have to get used to not just one new teacher, but several. Uniform rules are generally stricter, blazers aren't allowed to be removed no matter how hot it is, and in early September when school starts it usually is still quite hot.
Teachers in high school generally aren't as kind as primary school ones, if a child is upset or distressed they're expected to just "get on with it" they aren't comforted and reassured as they would be in primary.

P.E. lessons are more regimental, and you're expected to shower afterwards which is distressing particularly for many girls at this stage, as they are going through many changes and might not feel comfortable with this.

You're penalised for not having the right equipment on the right days, which isn't such a big deal in primary schools.

They're only 11. They've come straight from the school they've attended since they were 4 years old, and all of a sudden they're sharing a building for more than 6 hours a day with 15 and 16 year olds. And high school children can be brutal.

I know Year 6 is meant to be the "preparation year" but I don't think it's enough. They're still very much in a primary school environment. And outside of maybe one or two induction days, they don't have much help with the transition at all. I think this is one thing our cousins across the pond get right in terms of the education system, by having middle schools (previously called junior high schools) as a kind of in-between stage to help ease them in. I really think this kind of system would be beneficial here.

My kids did 10-14, 14-18. Definitely pluses and minuses, works for some not others. School has switched to 11-18 more recently

Whenever children transition between schools there are issues.

Some find it hard to make the transition in terms of pastoral issues - so they struggle with the new building and the new teachers etc.

Also every time they transition there is an information gap - teachers know the children and know that for example if Joey is dyslexic then these strategies work etc, or that Fred is often late but that is because he is caring for mum who is ill.

The more transitions you have the more kids drop between the gaps and lose progress.

There has been a lot of work on primary-secondary transition over the last 10 years or so and many secondaries now do sports leaders/language leaders etc and so have year 10s going into the feeder primaries. Most schools have transition units and will also have secondary teachers who go in a teach year 6 a few times in a "secondary style".

There are transition days in the summer, and for pupil premium and EHCP students there are whole weeks at the new school.

It's a massive amount of effort.

With middle schools students who go through middle school generally do not do as well in GCSEs as students should go through a primary-secondary system. That's why the areas that have them are getting rid of them.

Not all children are the same, you seem to think they are. What about neurodivergent children??

It totally depends on the child- mine was absolutely desperate to get away from his (very well regarded) primary school and has totally thrived in high school- the busyness, moving classes, multiple teachers (especially male teachers) and lots and lots of PE are exactly what he needed and just wasn’t getting in primary school. Having 6 years at high school (Scotland) is fantastic IMO, by S6 the teachers know them really well. I’d have hated for him to have to move schools.

They still have them in some areas. I lived in one but moved half way through to an area that didn’t have them - was equally happy in both scenarios. I think having all the separate school buildings / sites is one of the main reasons they have been largely phased out. It’s too expensive.

If the prep school system works for the rich why can't the rest of us have it?

But not all private schools do this - afaik all the ones in a large area around us operate the usual primary/secondary structure. The point is better resourced schools are likely to work better however they're configured.
And as pp have said, the state sector has areas either middle schools - seems like they don't have any marked advantage and possibly disadvantage in terms of educational outcomes?

And also the 'traditional' prep/senior school set-up is based around boarding, which is quite a different set-up and set of needs all round.

Some PP have also said they have them in their area or attended one themselves and it worked. There are always positives as well as negatives.

Had them in my county growing up. First school was reception to year 3, middle was years 4-7 and secondary started in year 8.

The private schools that run that system have competitive exams at 7 and 13 to change schools.

Quite a few privates actually don't run that system especially if they have a large state entry at 11 and virtually no 13+ entry.

They go to different classrooms with different teachers and middle schools can be huge in the US. We lived there and moved DC1 after 2 years in middle school - his middle school had 2000 kids in it compared to the 1200 in his now secondary school (that doesn’t have a 6th form). I actually think moving at 16 for sixth form or college is better than moving pre GCSE

and neither I nor my kids were expected to shower after PE in the U.K. but this does happen in a lot of middle schools in the US

so YABU because I reject a lot of what’s in your post and not supported by my limited personal experience of schooling in both countries

i do think U.K. uniforms are overly restricted though.

I went to school in a different country. We have one school building. The ground floor is typically allocated to primary classrooms and the rest of the school is secondary. You are going literally to the same school for the entire duration of your education, know the building inside out and are used to older children being around the building. I don't remember being put out by moving from primary to secondary.

I don't agree because it can be managed successfully in primary school by preparing the dc for secondary better. Our school were amazing and my year 7 child has settled in fantastically because the year 5/6 at her primary were treated as more grown up. Were given responsibility and expected to remember their own things. All the things you want a middle school to do. The secondary helps by completely separating year 7/8 from yrs 9/10/11.

But American schools are generally bigger anyway. Everything over there is bigger and I'm saying this as someone who did live there for a while

I agree that the current system isn't fit for purpose, but I am not sure where you have seen all these empty buildings or were you think all of these teachers will come from when the teachers are already leaving in droves.

I live in the US and we do have middle schools. So your primary school is equivalent to our elementary school (kindergarten and 1st through 5th grade is like your year 1 through year 6). Middle school is equivalent to the first three years of secondary (our 6th-8th grade is the same as your year 7 through year 9). Then high school is the last four years (9th through 12th grade like your year 10 through 13, the two GCSE years and the two A level years).

It's probably good having the 11 year olds separate from the 18 year olds in our system, but the rest of what you mention is just the same. Middle school isn't a transition phase. They go right from a nurturing elementary school, with the same teacher (or sometimes one teacher for math and science and another for English and language arts) and classroom, to different teachers for every subject, moving from one classroom to another throughout the day etc. in middle school.

I think the thing is that those three years are just the worst years of childhood. They are going through puberty yet still are pretty little kids really. It's a hard age, and it's a relief for all concerned when they start to come out the other side at high school age!

I do agree more could be done in primary school to help them transition better but it isn't being done.

We have them up here (Northumberland). DS will go to middle school after yr 4 and then onto high school in yr 9.

I actually really like the idea. I went to a 2 tier school and found the change massive in yr 7. I was really upset because my high school was an all girls school and had about 10 feeder schools and none of the girls from my primary school were in my form class. Form classes were together all day for every lesson with no opportunity to mingle with others except for lunch time. I hated how it was such a massive change in every respect (new building, new people, new way of learning etc) and I knew no one.

There are about 4 schools that will go into DSs middle school so much less of a chance of him feeling so isolated. Class structures mix more and eventually when he goes to high school, it's a blend of the 2 local middle schools so he'll already know most of the kids.

Even now in his first school they do a lot with the other local first schools so there are kids he already knows well in these schools.

My dc go to a school that finishes at end of year 8. As pp have said, there are pluses and minuses. Prep schools have them moving around and taught by specialist teachers from year 4. That is an additional cost to the school vs being taught by a class teacher. Also there is a real risk that years 7/8 become “lost years” especially now that the common entrance exams are being phased out other than for a tiny percentage of public schools as a condition of year 9 entrance ( entry is now typically by ISEB in Year 6/7). There’s no trigger to shift them up a gear at the start of KS3. I honestly think Year 9 is going to be one hell of a shock for DS. He’ll have a year to get used to being the youngest, getting used to a new school and picking his GCSEs. Students studying for GCSEs and a levels are all sort of theoretical to him still. DD is v ready to move on and would actually be better suited to switching for Year 7.

Maybe it's different where you live, but where I am there is an abundance of buildings which have been sitting empty for a number of years and nothing is being done with them.

I voted yanbu because I loved my middle school. But there have been loads of good points made on here about why introducing them wouldn’t be good overall.

I live in the Midlands and we've got middle school systems.

Our local comp has year 7-9 at one site and 10-13 at another.

however it’s a 13 form intake and the local feeder schools are typically 1-2 form per year.

it’s a huge difference and I do think they’re just that little bit too young in Y7.

but the school is effectively split into exam and non exam.

I don’t know what the answer is

Same here

They are getting rid, slowly

We have the infant/junior/secondary structure here, so the transition points are end of Y2 and end of Y6.

Its tricky. On the one hand I feel quite uneasy about sending DD to a school with 11 year olds wandering around when she’s only just 4.

On the flip side, I grew up in the same town and socially the transition from infant to junior was very hard and actually wound up with me leaving the state system.

I then went to a private school which went all the way through from YR - Y11 and the kids who’d been there from the age of 4 struggled hugely when transitioning away from the school at 16, to the extent that a handful never managed to go any further with education because they were so institutionalised.

I think like many things, the answer is ‘different systems suit different kids’ and there’s no one size fits all silver bullet school system.