To be so angry that people like this are in charge of SEND budgets

[Dalmatron]

Has anyone seen the thread on twitter/X about the Warwickshire Councillors at the scrutiny panel for SEND spending?

I am so angry!

Some quotes:
(Talking about institutions) "They had better ways of dealing with them at that time. Let's go back to those ways"
"I don't know what the fix is, I just look back at years gone by those people by whatever means, it was right at the time".
"Is it something in the water?"
"Families are swapping tips to get diagnosed"
"Why are there so many people jumping out with these needs? Where were they when I was at school?"
"Why do so many people have this badge of SEND and special needs?"
"To stop this spend fix the problem at source"
"the plea of a Mother saying Little Willy has ADHD when Little Willy is just really badly behaved & needs some form of strict correction"

How can people like this be in these positions? Why has nothing been done to remove them or apologise? I felt sick watching these clips.

Warwickshire Council thread

I'm not sure how drawing that distinction is relevant to my comment, since you were simply talking about "neurodivergence" in the one I quoted?

However, if you really want to get down to it, the specific presentation in autistic children with autistic parents is not actually related to theirs - otherwise we'd never see high-support-needs children of low-support-needs parents.

Yes thank you Rainbow that is the kind of scenario I mean.

I think I have worded clumsily and I apologise. I don't mean a severe case of autism or disabilities caused by autism being made worse. I mean a milder case presenting as more severe and less manageable (certainly what Rainbow describes in the "stressed" example would not be able to be accommodated in a MS classroom if this was every day). And then this having a knock on effect on learning or development if it was affecting a child constantly for years, that they then have to work harder to catch up if they can get back to a calmer state.

The conditions or aspects of environment contributing to this kind of stress can also be very difficult to identify so it's not a case of "just" supporting with the right environment as that would take time, trial and error, you don't always have access to the right resources or information. The "right" environment would be different for every person. And yes separating out the two separate issues of what is autism and what is external environmental stress. Not easy to do.

But anyway this is getting away from the point which was about SEN funding. Sorry. I won't respond on this topic any more because I don't want to derail the thread.

This is absolutely key.

I agree with this.

I was also thinking about this issue this morning and wondered if we are becoming less tolerant of difference (ironic, really, when we are eg more gay-friendly etc).

What I mean by that is eg I don't like crowds. Now is that a personality trait, a preference, or a symptom of an -ism.

Is a lack of tolerance for difference fueling a need to find a reason for that difference?

What I mean by that is eg I don't like crowds. Now is that a personality trait, a preference, or a symptom of an -ism.

I don't like crowds is a preference, I can't be in crowds because I get sensory overload and it makes me feel physically sick/ shake , brings on fight or flight is something more than a preference.

However, in addition to that, the number of children with very very complex needs, who are non-verbal, unable to interact at 3/4 years old, has SKYROCKETED. This isn’t about increased awareness, these children were always known about as their needs are so great. There is so so so many more of them than every before and there absolutely must be some sort of underlying cause. Unfortunately research into the factors which may contribute to asd was shelved as many in the autistic community felt it was ableist.

This is absolutely outrageous (about the discontinued research).

Anecdotally in my area the vast majority of parents whose children are as you describe here are young and working class rather than the traditional ‘older parents autism’ profile often mentioned. Is this your experience?

Is “complex” the same as “severe” in this discussion? I’m struggling to understand which part of the autistic spectrum is being discussed. Can I also just correct an idea that nonverbal is always associated with lower IQ, as that misses a rather important point about the autistic community. A significant proportion of autistic people have language deficits, some so extreme they cannot communicate verbally BUT they may also have normal or superior intelligence. In a way that was the whole focus of the original diagnosis. A group of patients were seen to be simultaneously lagging in some areas and not in others.

@Grandmasswag Totally agree and the screen thing starts from a baby. Go on any birth group thread on here and there’ll be mention of the ‘dancing fruits’. I’m not saying screen time is evil but children coming home from school and spending 3-4 hours watching YouTube and fast-paced programmes is dramatically limiting opportunities for play and interaction. Furthermore lots of these videos are specifically designed to keep your attention by changing the frame rate every few seconds, providing a dopamine hit. They flash, shout, move around quickly, so that the child needs this huge input to pay attention. Fast forward to the teacher reading them a story and they have to sit and listen - there’s no colourful screen, no fast pace, and their attention span has become accustomed to receiving that, so it switches off.

@BertieBotts the increase in children that I am noticing with complex needs will often be placed in specialist schools but will generally remain very disabled throughout their own life. It is not to do with unmet need - every single need could be met but they will continue to have extremely complex needs.

I very much agree with you about overstimulation, and this links to what I said above. People will talk about screens ‘regulating’ their child because they sit quietly but actually they’re very overstimulating and that comes out later, in a meltdown once the screen is gone or before bed or whatever. The screen overstimulates them and then something else puts them over the edge. The problem is they are then given the screen again to ‘regulate’, except it just becomes a cycle.

Im not sure who mentioned viruses, I’ve lost track, but there is actually some evidence around having a high temperature in pregnancy and autism. Controversially there’s also some research about taking paracetemol in pregnancy and autism but people don’t like to hear that one.

@Pleasehelpimexhausted yes actually often. I suspect it is a cycle. Young working class people with unmet needs struggle at school, having difficulties with communication skills etc which limit job opportunities. Tend to meet others in the same boat and have children as that’s typical culturally. These children then have needs as they were genetically predisposed but also, the parents do always have the capacity to teach the social skills, communication skills etc because of their own unmet needs. A young girl
With undiagnosed ADHD and ASD for example, possibly excluded from school, has a baby. She may not have the confidence and capacity to take the baby to baby classes, she may not realise the important of chatting back to the baby. Perhaps she struggles to read so reading to the baby is hard. She realises the baby enjoys going on the iPad and seems to learn from it so she goes for that. The child interacts with other less, language development is delayed. It’s a cycle.

The other astronomical rise we’ve had is children too anxious to attend school, often due to asd. The needs of those children are often in their nature expensice to meet, as generally the best answer is smaller classes, a personalised timetable etc. I do think though that we’ve entered a stage where any form of anxiety is deemed as unacceptable, when actually being anxious about something is a normal human emotion we need to work through. The problem is, if you can’t change the things that the child is anxious about, such as a loud and noisy corridor due to sensory needs, you cannot address the anxiety.

There’s definitely an enormous push to mitigate any discomfort in your child’s life. I was revisited a couple of episodes of the Inbetweeners with DP the other evening and we both noted the difference in approach of their parents (who were written to be quite typical parents of their time). Their reaction towards the boys issues is a mixture of eye rolling, mirth and occasional concern where it’s warranted (Will being thrown in a pond during his work experience, Simon breaking into Carly’s house). Some of the teasing would now be seen as completely unacceptable, bad parenting and ‘invalidating’ - laughing at Simon’s practice modelling walk, Jay’s dad endlessly talking the piss out of his lack of success with the opposite sex, Will’s mum’s amusement when he pulls a ‘fit bird’.

I feel like we are hindering our kids emotional development by not letting them work through unpleasant or irritating feelings, and by encouraging them to see danger or emotional spirals wherever they look. The thread on here about a 13 year old having a glass of Nosecco was full of posts saying it would lead to alcoholism in later life 🤯🤯

If I was worried about something, having somebody I trust say ‘yeah that’s not a big deal, don’t worry’ would be much more reassuring than ‘Yes I can see why you are worried, and now I am too, so I’m going to do XYZ about it’. But now it’s called ‘minimising’. Every little thing must be taken seriously and pursued to the end in a bid to show our kids we have their backs, and it’s turning them neurotic.

What on Earth do you think that has to do with SEND?

Because MH conditions are under the SEN umbrella and I believe exacerbated by things like this.

But the councellor talking states 17.4% do, in his area - obviously something very strange is happening there- that can't be right

Aaaaah so you think the increase in numbers is predominantly MH caused by mollycoddling? Rather than the increase in disability particularly asd/adhd?

Did I say that, or imply it?

I think I’ve misunderstood your post then @Pleasehelpimexhausted what did you mean?

I have never heard of a link between overweight and ASD but if you are a restricted eater you are more, not less, likely to be overweight - the foods that restricted eaters prefer are often more calorific (because highly palatable foods e.g. sweet, fatty are going to be highly calorific).

Add to this the dopamine hit that children with ADHD get from eating sweet foods and you are going to get a higher prevalence of overweight.

To the EP upthread: are some of these complex cases aged 3/4 and unable to talk etc. due to increased survival of premature babies?

@Pleasehelpimexhausted I agree with what you have said and I think this ties in with the approach taken in this model
https://www.spacetreatment.net/
The "olden days" approach - you can just get over it and stop whingeing - does not work but the "my anxious darling" approach - you are too anxious to do XYZ and you always will be - does not approach either.
(Both massively over simplified. Don't @ me).

Parents need to acknowledge their child's emotions but also express confidence in their abilities.
I tried to get a group of parents locally interested in setting up a group around this approach but was told that any attempt to suggest that a child was capable of doing something they are not currently doing was abusive and shouldn't be contemplated.
Anxiety begets anxiety and avoiding anything that might make you anxious makes both that thing AND the thought of being anxious too scary and to be avoided.
Going through something anxious-making helps a child to see that both the thing itself AND anxiety can be coped with.

I tried to get a group of parents locally interested in setting up a group around this approach but was told that any attempt to suggest that a child was capable of doing something they are not currently doing was abusive and shouldn't be contemplated

Yep, same as parents round here. Even confiscating a toy as a consequence of bad behaviour is called abusive. It’s all chats and hot chocolate. And they’re staggered their child’s behaviour doesn’t improve, so they up the ante with more chats and more hot chocolates 😬

Trouble is what is the answer.

All children should have an education and support. Are more special schools required, highly likely but so many parents don’t want their child in a special school because it feels like harping back to being forced into it.

Nd and Nt children are both being failed by this inclusion at all costs but actually let’s not pay costs.

Maybe schools shouldn’t be catchment at all maybe they should be needs rated. Both in the sense of Sen and in the sense of smartness. Some schools that are very much hands on and wild and some for those who need that shit down shut up look at the board strictness genuinely too. With everything in the middle too. Would that ever happen I doubt it though.

Nobody is voting for more taxes to help Sen though let’s face it like jt or hate it, it’s the truth. Most people feel taxed to within an inch anyway be that wages, then the tax/vat on items and utilities it soon adds up. Tax on savings, tax on inheritance
we seem to pay so much but it often feels like we get so little back at the same time. Despite most actually being net takers than givers. The whole thing is a mess.

@Pleasehelpimexhausted oh yes, anything is abusive!
As an adoptive parent I'm not allowed to mention "learning", "rewards" or "behaviour". Apparently adopted children are exempt from the idea that if you do something that gets what you want, you do it more, even if you weren't originally doing it with the aim of getting something you wanted.

I was once removed from a "gentle parenting" group because I suggested gradually withdrawing the chair you were sitting on to help your child settle in bed (known as "vanishing chair"). Apparently this was traumatic. Those parents should try the trauma my DCs have experienced (even at school, for DS, as a result of bullying).

@OhmygodDont I want my child in mainstream because in specialist his lessons consist of playing on his computer or watching films for English.

It sounds like you're suggesting a three tier system - grammar schools (from age 5, in other words children of the middle classes who have books at home), Lord of the Flies (for families who don't have books at home) and babysitting (which is what my DS seems to be getting).

I am a teacher and also the mum of a child with SEN.

I have thought for a while that school results (Progress 8 etc) ought to be SEND-weighted e.g. contextualised for the number of DC on SEN support and with EHCP at that school (with some kind of appropriate adjustment for achievement levels on entry e.g. not assuming that all or even most DC with SEN are below average academically).

If it can be done for Pupil Premium, it can be done for SEND.

At the moment, there's no advantage in league table terms to a school taking a disproportionate number of DC with SEND. Quite the reverse, actually.