To think that people who agree with VAT on private school fees but not on university fees, are hypocrites?

[Blanket601]

If Labour add VAT to private school fees, they should also add VAT to university fees. Or no VAT on either. The principle and rule, should be the same.

Why is only private school education being platformed. I think we all know why.

I for one think it's a great idea to raise prices if it ensures that only the truly wealthy can afford to go to private schools.

It makes me sick when the wretched middle classes save money and make cutbacks to enrol their kids, when they should learn their place and get back to the pits!

For equality...

No they do pay it at the full rate. There's no exemption from VAT for private schools (whether or not they are charities) - they pay it in exactly the same way as everyone else. I think there's a lot of anger on this issue because people think that private schools have some special arrangement where they are exempt from normal VAT but that's not the case at all. It's state schools that have the favourable treatment because they can (quite reasonably) claim VAT back.

The proposal isn't to make private schools pay VAT (they already do) but to make private school parents pay VAT on fees. That's completely new because there's never been a sales tax on education (pretty much globally) and it wouldn't have been possible when we were in the EU.

That's why the question in the OP comes about because private schools and universities are both charging a fee for education so if we start to say we put VAT on education the same principle could apply to universitites. If you look at the VAT rules you'll see that schools and universities are treated in the same way in the same bit of the rules (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-on-education-and-vocational-training-notice-70130#section3 - para 3.1). Of course it's perfectly possible to remove the exemption for schools/secondary education but not universities/tertiary education so it's not inevitable that VAT would go on both at all. But once you establish the principle it's OK you can see the argument could go that way in the future.

@Mia85

You misunderstand me.

Private school fees are exempt.

Also around half of private schools have charitable status. Which provides tax exemptions, reduced rates, and gift aid!

They are businesses, selling a luxury service.

My son wants to study medicine. It's already over 9 grand a year fees plus living costs for 5 years. To do a job that is needed. It's a bit much if we also had to pay vat on top of that but ultimately we would pay it if needed because he wants to be a dr to help people not to earn big money. We have a family friend who earns more than drs selling flooring.
So it would basically just mean more debt for me and him getting him through uni. He has to go to uni to be a dr. It's not the same as private school because there is no free option. He has to go to uni or he can't be a dr. There is talk of degree apprenticeships for drs starting though.
So I don't agree with Vat on necessary degrees such as nursing/ medical etc but if people are desperate to do that job (which he has been since he was 6 years old) then it won't put him off applying.

@Purplesilkpyjamas not just doctors.... children who become the future. I have seen that private schools usually educate well. I'd quite like to keep that going rather than try to eradicate them indirectly!

Private school is based entirely on your ability to pay. University is based on ability and ability to pay, and is required to participate in many industries. Private school is a privilege, as there are public options. University is still a privalage, but one that can be accessed by management more kids- many kids can not attend uni due to the costs already, and then can be trapped in roles with little chance of progression. I don't believe the argument of VAT on private and university is even close in comparison

I can afford it but don't.

There is that..

@DinnaeFashYersel

Same, and this has been done to death on another thread.

People who buy houses already pay taxes on the purchase. It’s called stamp duty land tax and is a percentage of the purchase price of the house.

You are ridiculous. What about bright state school students?

Agreed on both counts.

Could have afforded it but didn't choose it. No regrets.

It's clear from multiple previous threads that there are plenty of MNers who could afford private but choose state... for a whole multitude of different reasons.

To have a functioning economy. Countries need engineers, scientists, doctors, writers, artists, economists and many other skilled professionals if they want to have anything more than an agrarian economy. Those professionals are trained in tertiary education institutions which, in the U.K. at least, are mostly called universities.

There are plenty of countries where private schools are virtually non-existent, and certainly no others where the products of private schools dominate public life to such a degree that they do in the U.K. There are no developed economies without tertiary education institutions.

Not sure what your point is. No one has said they don’t give a shit about bright state school kids. But I don’t believe for a second that charging VAT on private school fees will change the school experience of those in state education.

lol it's not the same

Don’t be ridiculous, it’s not remotely the same and you know it

Private school fees and university fees are completely different.

A state school education is sufficient to get the (entry level) qualifications you need for any career (advantages of sport, confidence building etc at private schools set aside).

But if you want to be a lawyer or a doctor or a nurse or an engineer, you need a degree and postgraduate diplomas. We need those well qualified people, and in my view the state should pay the fees. They'll pay plenty back in tax.

There are plenty of countries where private schools are virtually non-existent, and certainly no others where the products of private schools dominate public life to such a degree that they do in the U.K.

What about the two tier university system the US has?

Most people seem to have missed the point. Obviously universities and secondary schools are not the same. However as the one poster who understood my post said:

‘That's why the question in the OP comes about because private schools and universities are both charging a fee for education so if we start to say we put VAT on education the same principle could apply to universitites. If you look at the VAT rules you'll see that schools and universities are treated in the same way in the same bit of the rules (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-on-education-and-vocational-training-notice-70130#section3 - para 3.1). Of course it's perfectly possible to remove the exemption for schools/secondary education but not universities/tertiary education so it's not inevitable that VAT would go on both at all. But once you establish the principle it's OK you can see the argument could go that way in the future’.

Is it clearer now?

There are far more than two tiers in US universities. The tiers are based on selectivity/ admission rates. You could pay more to go to a state university than you would pay at an Ivy League school, depending on your state's educational priorities and your income. Some state schools are excellent, some are great, some are good, some are fine. Some have stellar reputations in certain areas (engineering, business, etc).

The vast majority of university graduates (all types of universities) in the US come from public (state) schools.

Going to a private high school in the US is not a guarantee of getting into any kind of university - you might be better positioned to pay for university, but that's the only advantage to having the money to pay for a private education. Depending on the area and the type of private school, fees are nowhere near fees for elite British secondary schools. Most private schools are run by mainstream prganised religious groups - RC, Lutheran, general protestant. They tend not to price themselves beyond the reach of the people they want to attract.

Public/ state schools in the US are often far better equipped and offer far more bells and whistles than private schools. Schools in middle class areas and magnet or selective admission public schools in big cities offer educational environments and extracurricular opportunjties many private schools in the UK would gasp at, and have annual budgets of over $100m. Education is locally funded by property taxes and business taxes, with some funding coming from the state and some from the federal government - people who can afford to live in middle class areas effectively pay for the education of all the children in their municipality via property taxes. State education is free at point of service.

Sorry but lumping in the likes of Marlborough with "schools" is just disingenuous.

One is a business providing a luxury product exclusively for the well-off. Such that it caters to the wealthiest 7%.

The other educates the nation.

Private schools are profit making enterprises. Universities aren't. Surely that's the difference?

I say that as someone who would totally privately educate my children if I had the money. The autism provision in state schools is woefully inadequacy. Which is down to government, we have had some great teachers.

@Purplesilkpyjamas yes state school pupils too. It's not one or the other! I'm just saying why try and bring down a sector or our education provision. I don't believe adding VAT is going to improve state school provision, yet it will affect the education of those at private schools

We are struggling to pay fees already. We are saving state school places and money, but still paying the tax. It feels very unfair.

If we have to return to a state school at this point it will screw up our DC's education.

Perhaps all state school children's parents would like to pay VAT on say 18k a year for every child. That would even it out.

We are slogging it out, in a cost of living crisis here, trying to eek out pennies like everyone else.

I don't have a money tree. We shop in Aldi already. What next?