To think that people who agree with VAT on private school fees but not on university fees, are hypocrites?

[Blanket601]

If Labour add VAT to private school fees, they should also add VAT to university fees. Or no VAT on either. The principle and rule, should be the same.

Why is only private school education being platformed. I think we all know why.

From what I hear from colleagues with kids in private schools they have a fair few teachers who qualified in other countries. Fair few female maths and science teachers from China/HK/India coming in, for example. That is London. Whether they are happy to go teach in a U.K. state school given the totally different culture there and all the behaviour issues in some U.K. state schools right now, I don’t know. Teacher recruitment is most challenging in the most challenged schools, as one would expect.

I would think very few would be happy to switch to state. The recruitment crisis in the state sector, with hoards of teachers leaving, is happening for a reason.

https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/08/teachers-england-schools-figures-department-education-survey

Presumably the number of students wanting to do music A level will increase if there is a mass switch of private school pupils to state schools. If they wanted to do music A level when at private school why would this change when at a state school?

It would be really nice if you read a little more on the subject, such as the links I provided (which you asked for). Then you'd know

• there are 2.5k state school vacancies
• we should expect 1k redundant teachers for every 1% of pupils that migrate...actually that's generous because "fixed costs" are "fixed" so expenditure cuts will fall disproportionately on headcount...so plan for 3-7k teachers in most optimistic scenario or 25k in most pessimistic
• ...plus support staff
• ...and even then you can't assume skills/location/capability match
• ...and even if you could, the stubborn state school vacancies are hard-to-fill for a reason, and let's say "not obviously appealing" to private school teachers

I started off thinking echo chamber but the thread seems to be moving more into French farce territory. Dad’s army economics, gullible kool-aid drinking of overtrumped disaster scenarios, rallying of troops to physically disrupt and displace state school DC and perceptions of state schools that if true would make Grange Hill look like Harrow!

Again, nobody has said "big negative impact". What we're consistently saying is minimal / negligible positive impact, and possibly some negative impact, and the unintended consequences (as you lot keep demonstrating) haven't been thought through. (for example when you indicate it's fine to make 5-25k teachers redundant because there are 2.5k vacancies somewhere in the state sector).

..so why do you want all the aggro, uncertainty, distraction and disruption, not to mention the legislative, enforcement, avoidance challenges for years to come and the deadweight cost of house moves, school closures and restructuring, and absorption challenges (financial and operational) for the education system. And harming / disrupting children's education.

Given if this is about raising £1.5bn or whatever for the state system, there are many fairer, easier, more predictable and less toxic ways to go about it. You could get £1.5bn on alcohol or income tax without anyone even noticing.

I'm not in the least interested in sympathy. I'm interested in good public policy and this isn't it.

I'm an economist and you're being presented with economics. Yet again, and this particular post from you plumbs new depths of banality, you don't engage with the contents.

You haven't presented anything back. Given, again, nobody else in the world has a tax like this, given Greece tried it and it failed and they gave up, how about you make your best case FOR the tax instead of just contradicting every piece of evidence that's put before you?

So, you are arguing that no one should have to teach at a state school because they are so terrible? Not only is it obnoxious but do you seriously think that is going to sway people not to agree with the VAT policy given their children will be at or will have gone to a state school. I really wonder what you hope to achieve with your posts.

I haven't read the economist article (I can't access it) but I think Greece was told not to charge VAT anyway by the EU. Regardless, the fact that they changed it the policy demonstrates that it can be reversed if it had a negative impact.

‘haven't read the economist article (I can't access it) but I think Greece was told not to charge VAT anyway by the EU.’

we aren’t in the EU.

Are you and @StarlingsForever actually the same person? No, that's not what I said. It's not even close to what I said.

There are lots of great state schools and lots of great teachers and there are hard-to-fill vacancies. I really don't think that's controversial. It's just something everyone knows to be true.

And it's certainly not obnoxious, any more than it's obnoxious that existing state school teachers, or you personally, aren't tearing down the road to fill those spaces.

Because those vacancies are hard-to-fill for reasons I suspect you probably know but won't admit, your assumption that private school teachers can easily find jobs (apart from all the other reasons I provided) doesnt' stack up.

You can read the case study in the Adam Smith paper Appendix, which quotes the details from the Economist article and other sources. I know you don't like it, but it won't hurt you actually to understand what we're talking about.

Or just accept from me, all you need to know is it caused "general mayhem".

None of this is going to solve the behaviour issues in many state schools. That is the crux of the matter. My DCs all went to the same outstanding state primary and then to different grammars. All the schools right now, although they have a privileged middle class intake with a low FSM, are experiencing behaviour issues like they have never ever encountered before. Teachers do not know whether it is Covid, screens or whether the poor mental health of parents and society as a whole is somehow affecting the kids. What we need is behaviour specialists, more staff, nip the behaviour issues in the bud at a young age etc. and lots of support for those with SEN. Keep letting the politicians lie to you, but you go ahead and assume it is all going to just pass. Teachers are tearing their hair out because the expectation is to still get these DCs to X level like just carry on as before. It is not going to happen.

In the mean time, I don’t believe that many private schools won’t be encountering similar issues as well. Yes, many have more staff, but a bit of that must be going on there. So let’s go just rattle that lot a bit as well so we can all keep sinking to the bottom of the sea, happily, together.

‘and let's say "not obviously appealing" to private school teachers’

I think you underestimate the number of private school teachers who have worked in public schools and vice Versa. I’m not sure every private school teacher shares your horror of the idea of being in a normal school …
But I suppose if they would rather been unemployed than teach, that’s on them.

I'm only interested in original unbiased article. It is easy to pick out quotes from an article and use it to suit your own agenda. As I said I'm not sure what you hope to achieve with your patronising claims, insults and general superiority. Getting the last word by posting copious amounts on this issue on this thread and others only demonstrates that you have a lot of free time (ironic given you want everyone to believe you are so hard working and worthy of a high salary) and a vested interested in making people believe the policy won't work.

Again, I wasn't talking about "working in state schools" or "horror of normal schools". I was talking about the 2.5k "hard-to-fill vacancies".

I KNOW there are lots of teachers who move both ways. And they don't fill the "hard-to-fill vacancies". It's not controversial, I'm not passing judgment on state schools in general and I wonder what motivates you to pretend I am?

There's nothing in the Economist article other than saying what a disaster the policy was, for the short time it was in place. You shouldn't accuse me of bias when you simply reject and contradict out-of-hand everything that's put in front of you.

It remains for advocates of this tax to prove your case and I don't even see you trying.

I think you underestimate the number of private school teachers who have worked in public schools and vice Versa. I’m not sure every private school teacher shares your horror of the idea of being in a normal school

idontfinkso if a private schoolteacher decided on a change of career and applied for a job at your company (which I think probably doesn’t exist given your unwillingness to answer questions on your recruitment policy) would they also be turned down like the privately educated graduates?

No one is saying that. The fact is that many don’t want to work in the state sector (including those who’ve never worked in the private sector). The hard to fill vacancies are hard to fill for a reason. State school teachers are leaving in record numbers. They’re not going to be magically filled by anyone leaving the private sector.

In addition to this, there are many jobs in private education where job openings are rare or non existent in the state sector. Just 2% of state schools teach Latin and Greek. Only around 35% teach German. Support staff such as grounds staff, plumbers, security, laundry, chefs etc aren’t often needed as much in the state sector.

I don't need to try. Ironically, your attitude and superiority complex will do the opposite of what you intend.

I agree, I'm thinking more that there is a clear legal requirement for council to provide school places.
SEN is less binary, is the provision good enough, probably not but the political and legal ramifications is quite different compared to no school places at all.

Will state schools then have to spend more funds on recruiting A level music teachers? That should probably be taken into account in the IFS figures as well.

I think you underestimate the number of private school teachers who have worked in public schools

When you say “public schools” I think you might have misunderstood what a public school actually is.

If you are trying to say that many have worked in the state sector, yes they have. Many have left that sector for a reason and wouldn’t return. State school teachers are resigning in record numbers.

Think VAT on private school fees is ill thought out. There are alternative ways of 'penalising' private education, outside of tax system. Firstly, where do you draw the line - private schools e.g Eton, Vs special needs schools, private tutors, after school.clubs, text books, online learning platforms, university, music lessons, adult education... Secondly, if motivation for private school is to 'get ahead', (which most definitely is not always the case) sharp-elbowed parents with ambitions for their kids will always find a way to do this. 100% contextual offers, means tested funded internships, less reliance on performance in 3 subjects picked when 15 to determine your future and good career advice in all schools would help.

You are misinterpreting and twisting words to suit your own agenda. There was no suggestion that they shouldn’t have to teach in the state system. It’s a matter of choice for them but I doubt many would choose to return. The teacher retention crisis in State schools is well publicised and often discussed on Mumsnet!

In the 10 years I have had a DC at private school only one teacher has left the school to return to state and that was because he took a headteacher role. The thing about private school is that you get to know the teachers a lot better than a state school because many of them have their own DC there so you talk to them out of school (at parties, play dates, mum’s Christmas party etc.) A number have described their experiences in the state schools they have taught in and they state openly that they don’t want to go back.