To think that people who agree with VAT on private school fees but not on university fees, are hypocrites?

[Blanket601]

If Labour add VAT to private school fees, they should also add VAT to university fees. Or no VAT on either. The principle and rule, should be the same.

Why is only private school education being platformed. I think we all know why.

Look, if parents are worried about disrupting their kids' education, then they can just pay the VAT and keep them where they are.

If they can't afford the VAT at the moment, they will have to work harder until they can. After all, so many private school parents are extremely eager to make the point that their kids are able to enjoy a privileged education because their parents have worked their arses off to pay for it. Given that it's all down to hard work rather than good fortune/structural inequalities, I'm sure that the parents will step up.

I believe that there are a lot more people in the stratum of ‘wealthy enough not to care about VAT’ than assumed. Not talking about extreme wealth but more people whose families have always used private education, often there will be trust fund money for it and who are not that bothered about paying a bit more tax. There are also a lot of International wealthy parents, particularly in the big name London/boarding schools. You also have the extremely wealthy who won’t even notice VAT.. So, of the 6% of DC affected, there is a reduced percentage who are practically affected. They are not the ones with the real clout to influence and they don’t have critical mass in their small numbers. Anecdotally, despite the caricaturing on here, we are not in the extremely wealthy category, just wealthy enough that VAT would be affordable without financial sacrifice. Most of my professional friends/colleagues would be similar and behaviourally as a group those people are far more likely to get behind initiatives such as mentoring bright and deprived DC with Oxbridge applications etc. which have no fiscal value but can make a significsnt impact at an individual human level.

“This is going to create substantial cost for the local council as amongst the parents I would imagine there are going to create a cohort of well resourced pissed off activist parents. “

We already have that in the state sector here. People have been campaigning for years for extra local places in the grammars and more places in the better schools. This will just give them more feed. And anyone with a child with SEN has been fighting for them for years.

And because we are a borough known for good state schools we know we are going to get shafted by this, but the Council is just ignoring the whole thing for now. They don’t have a plan! So what we are trying to do is make sure they at least have a plan.

@MisterChips PS fees have rocketed over the last decade, far more than 20%, yet numbers attending PS has increased, by your argument, numbers should have fallen, no?

@Araminta1003
And also, let’s pretend it has nothing to do with trying to stuff the South East and London too, where lots of private schools are located, disproportionally so

Don't be ridiculous, London is stacked with Lab MPs.... the country has v little money, so taxes are going to have to raised and increased on many things.

If the tax proves to be negative, it can be reversed but as far as i can see, its all about the better off keeping more of their money and Tory supporters using it as a wedge issue.

That's true, but there are also many schools in the regions, where fees are MUCH lower, as I pointed out to @StarlingsForever earlier, hence per ISC data the mode and median fees being in the £12-15k bracket (day schools) rather than the £20-30k everyone seems to assume. The £16.7k mean is dragged up by a small number of top boarding schools, the ones you've all heard of, and by the very expensive specialist SEN provision you've described.

So in the regions, we're really not talking about the spectacularly rich. Two median income earners absolutely can, and do, afford private school if they really want to.

What you also find is a number of boarding schools that are dominant - or only - employers in their small towns and villages. If the school contracts or closes, those jobs aren't likely to be replaced locally. Sometimes we say we care about economically vulnerable areas....but apparently not if they are collateral damage in the class warfare against independent schools.

But it will at best raise trivial money. More likely, it will raise much less than Labour claim. Quite possibly, it loses money. Nobody really knows.

"Tory supporters using it as a wedge issue." pot/kettle?

@Absolutely45 - well I am not particularly partisan or loyal to any party. Whilst we have all been programmed to vote negatively for what we do not want, personally I will be voting for whatever MP stands who has a plan locally for Education, in particular. I no longer give two hoots about what Westminster are up to. They can drown in their own dogma as far as I am concerned, the lot of them. There is so much difference of opinion and infighting in both main parties, so I will be voting for a person locally not a party. And if my Labour MP does not have a plan and just spews the IFS nonsense, they won’t be getting my vote.

Sometimes we say we care about economically vulnerable areas....but apparently not if they are collateral damage in the class warfare against independent schools.

Exactly. Anyone who is prepared to work for the wicked institutions that are independent schools deserves to lose their jobs.
Serves them right, eh?

And interestingly, where I am, we have great state schools and fantastic state school campaigners. Ask our Council and they will tell you it is the parents and their commitment to Education which makes us successful. The reward we get in return - lower state school funding for our DC! Any private school parent who wants to join forces is perfectly welcome to. We welcome them in our fight for our DCs futures. They have been so badly let down by Government during Covid. Most of the educational issues we are experiencing in our schools are behavioural related which then ties in with mental health. Our teachers cannot teach properly because they have to manage to many behaviour issues.

So in the regions, we're really not talking about the spectacularly rich. Two median income earners absolutely can, and do, afford private school if they really want to

Two earners on avg income is around 65 to 70k, after tax/pension etc take home is around 48k, they will not be able to afford PS fees, especially if more than 1 child.

Years 9-11 per (day) term fees are £6900, 3 terms. This is a school that few if any, outside of the area would have heard of, so not top end of fees and about 300 miles from London/SE.

There is also a lot of extras to find for a PS education.

Two earners on £35k will be taking home almost £5k per month. There are plenty of schools (primary) around £1k per month. Some families would be happy to spend that on fees (and might qualify for a bursary), and live off £4k per month.

There is also a lot of extras to find for a PS education.

I’m not sure where this idea comes from. It’s perfectly possible not to have many extras. Lots of private school pupils don’t have music lessons, buy second hand uniform and don’t go on all school trips. It’s really not unusual. Music lessons, uniform and trips are the things that account for the majority of extras.

“Exactly. Anyone who is prepared to work for the wicked institutions that are independent schools deserves to lose their jobs.
Serves them right, eh?”

Nah, you’re not “real” teachers, you’re alien Willi Wonkas fabricating the next generation of “Tories” shooting them straight into Westminster…. And how dare ya do some outreach to indoctrinate the masses? Who da ya think you are?

There are jobs in state schools.

“There are jobs in state schools.”

So you want all the former music, Latin, MML teachers to teach Maths and Physics in state schools now? What a great plan!

You see this is a massive part of the advantage of private schooling. You don’t have to ‘fight’ for a decent education for your kids. Who has the time and energy for that? If your child is dyslexic you get dyslexia support. No need to badger the school and then the local authority got months and months to get a basic standard of education.

This thread seems to be turning into an echo chamber of relatively well off people who are furious at the idea of having to pay VAT on what would be considered luxury to most people. There has been no convincing evidence that it would have a big negative impact on the population and you aren't going to convince people that going to a state school is some terrible fate that your precious children shouldn't have to suffer when many people on MN probably have no choice but to send their children to a state school. Some posters obnoxious statements e.g. about trying to cause chaos for state schools because they are not happy about the policy is not going garner any sympathy either. It's not the same as Brexit at all particularly as if it did cause a negative impact the policy could be changed. It reminds me more of the self interested uproar from some parties when a minimum wage was suggested or the smoking ban in pubs.

From the election results it looks like a Labour government is on its way. Thank F for that. I’m not sure I can’t take much more from these privately educated dimwits.

They have music teachers in state schools.

idontfinkso as you’re back in the thread, I’ll try again with my earlier question to you?

can I ask what profession you work in?
When you deliberately excluded any privately educated applicants did you warn them in advance not to apply as they wouldn’t be hired on principal?
Do you always ask for details of education on application forms?

There are jobs in state schools.

Wombat I could be wrong but I think different qualifications are required in state schools and private schools.
‘There are frequently comments on here about private schools employing ‘unqualified teachers’.

@wombat15 - they have a few music teachers in the state sector, but even in my DCs grammar they can hardly get anyone to sign up to A level Music or MML, even the demand for humanities is thin on the ground. So what is the plan? What is the plan for these teachers?
I guess at this point any “body” will do because our politicians just want to crow about how many teachers they recruited in the press.

They would have to be qualified teachers, yes. I think most are at private schools. though.

You don’t have to be “qualified” to work in state schools. Academy schools and free schools don’t require QTS - this accounts for around 80% of secondary schools.

There are vacancies in state schools, yes. However, most vacancies are in STEM and modern languages. Many of these teachers have already had experience of the state sector and wouldn’t return. They’re more likely to change careers or return to a previous career.

In addition to this, there are many jobs in private education where job openings are rare or non existent in the state sector. Just 2% of state schools teach Latin and Greek. Only around 35% teach German. Support staff such as grounds staff, plumbers, security, laundry, chefs etc aren’t often needed as much in the state sector. The private education sector provides a huge amount of employment and are often the bedrock of their local areas.