To think that people who agree with VAT on private school fees but not on university fees, are hypocrites?

[Blanket601]

If Labour add VAT to private school fees, they should also add VAT to university fees. Or no VAT on either. The principle and rule, should be the same.

Why is only private school education being platformed. I think we all know why.

Read my post.
I went through this thread.
There are no deletions

If that is from another thread then
please refer to MNHQ rules / guidelines

Nobody has claimed "huge negative impact". Lots of us are indicating minimal positive impact or some negative impact (on society in general), and question whether those dubious gains, small at best, justify what will definitely be huge negative impact on some families and their children, the schools they attend and the teachers they employ.

Please do let's remember it's about children and families. I'm astonished how many people, on this forum of all places, are content to slag off children and families for wanting to do their best and paying disproportionate taxes for the privilege.

I have a feeling you'll declare that everything you disagree with is biased, but here you go, I'm sure we're all glad to discuss contents.

EDSK - OBSTACLES TO ADDING VAT TO SCHOOL FEES
EDSK - VAT ON PRIVATE SCHOOL FEES
Short-Term Thinking: Analysing the Effect of Applying VAT to School Fees — Adam Smith Institute
ISCreport2022FINALWEB.pdf (oxfordeconomics.com)
'It's out of sync with the rest of the sector' | School Management Plus: School & education news worldwide
Greece reconsiders a tax on private education (economist.com)
Taxing private schools: the truth behind the bluster | Tes Magazine

Then there's this guy Darren Jones who's now a Labour front-bencher. Back when he was a very sensible backbencher....the headline, being the Mail, is an exaggeration, but Jones' comments still ring true.

Labour MP leads revolt over Keir Starmer's controversial plan to charge VAT on private school fees | Daily Mail Online

Finally of course there's about a dozen surveys of parental intentions and also of family finances, all consistently pointing to 20-25% unable to afford a 15-20% fee hike or whatever. It's reasonable to treat those estimates with caution given the source, and being "stated" not "observed" behaviour, but there's no other current evidence as to what will happen...this being an unprecedented tax hike.

And on the flip side of whatever concerns you have about motivated survey responses, the intentions of the subsequent generation will be more sensitive i.e. more likely to pile into catchment areas and less likely to engage in the strongly tax-generative private sector. So if you think 25% is an over-estimate among current parents...maybe expect 10-15% (but who knows)...still could be 25% for the next cohort starting in a year or two.

You said upthread - 'The risks are large and entirely negative'.

I never said it was on this thread. It was on a parallel thread on the exact same topic where only today MisterChips was using what I had said on this specific thread as ammunition against me.

The audacity of referring me to rules and guidelines when you have directly and falsely called me a liar! That is a personal attack. Perhaps you should take a look. And saying what an awful trait lying is when yesterday you were saying that your DC had openly lied on job applications about which schools they had gone to. Really!

I'll leave you all to your VAT. I started out wanting to find out a bit more and now wish I hadn't bothered. Life is too short for threads like these.

Except you haven’t stabilised all
the other possible variables so that data won’t actually tell you much at all. But carry on. As you were.

"I already clarified that when I had referred to "whingeing" it was talking about a group and in no way personally directed at you."

What you wrote: "Why can't you see that whinging about having to work hard and pay a lot of taxes and VAT on school fees while many in the country are actually on the bread line doesn't foster sympathy"

I'm sorry for falsely accusing you. It's definitely obvious that you were talking about other people and not about me specifically. I was confused by your use of the word "you" to refer to those other people in a post addressed to...me. Also "whinging" is friendly, reasonable objective and constructive language. Keep it up!

More importantly:

What does my spare money and whether or not I have already paid my DC's school fees or not have to do with anything? It means a great deal (1) you have no skin in the game, you are in the luxury position of not having to put your money where your mouth is (2) you are in the luxury position of having enjoyed / paid for great education, or "privilege" if you really must, for your DC (3) since you've been at pains to tell us all how very successful and wealthy you are, and how you'd have been happy to pay more tax out of your spare money, you are/were also in the luxury position of being able to afford to do so, unlike families at the margin with whom you're out of touch.

"Private education for me but not for thee!"

Sure. which is different from "would have huge negative impact". I can explain why if required.

As someone who professionally knows a lot about this area, the government can decide to charge vat on whatever they like. Labour said they are going to charge VAT on private schooling. It’s easy for them legislatively to make this choice. It is equally simple for them to decide not to charge VAT on uni fees / swimming lessons / sixth form colleges / whatever else they choose. Yes they could end up charging VAT on uni fees, but that’s not something that would happen by accident. It would only happen if they consciously decided to do so. Would that be a decision that would be politically wise for the Labour Party to make? I would think not.

Again trawling through posts in other threads! In an attempt to get some sort of one up a ship and out posters ( especially when out of context )

It's easy to legislate. A loyal majority in the Commons is about as powerful a governing platform as anywhere in the world outside autocracies.

It's less easy to make loopholes (ironically, creating many more actual "tax breaks" than Labour are talking about today) that accurately have exactly the effects you outline without being gamed by schools. Hence

https://www.edsk.org/publications/obstacles-to-adding-vat-to-independent-school-fees/

If I were a Bursar, I'd be thinking:

• carve out boarding provision (you'd have to make it optional which will work in some schools better than others) and call it childcare under a separate entity. Especially if (assuming) state boarding remains VAT-free
• make school meals optional
• fire all the sports coaches / music teachers and "rent" them facilities so they come back as freelancers working direct to parents
• carve out all the after hours activities and let teachers charge parents directly as though they were self-employed tutors
• etc.

Some of those will have their challenges, some will work. It's going to be a monster task to write up the legislation to close all loopholes, then there will be huge headaches in avoidance / enforcement challenges. As Tom from EDSK keeps saying "I wouldn't want that job".

It really is not good form to call posters liars when they are not and even worse try to bluster out of apologising for it. Not a good look.

I really hope that, if this comes in, every parent paying fees at the moment gets together and causes absolute chaos for the government and local councils until they reverse the policy. Everyone should apply for a place at state school for their child. That would cause chaos in itself. Then when the place is given, let them go for a day, then keep them off for as long as possible before you get fined then deregister them. Then repeat the process!!! All whilst keeping them in their private school. Would grind the system to a halt. I’m so angry about all this I would happily organise it.

Would MN allow a plotting thread 🤣🤣

I cannot see any research in those links, just opionion and commentary which is mostly biased. If the VAT policy was brought in, I doubt it would be immediate and if families really can't afford vat they would have a couple of years notice to switch to state schools. Likewise the teachers would be able to get a job in a state school.

So you would happily cause chaos for state schools and the children in them. Probably wouldn't be nice for your own child either .

What would you consider research? Why do you think it's biased? Is it up to me / opponents of the education tax to prove it's crap? Why isn't it for you / advocates to prove it's going to be terrific?

Remember this is an unprecedented tax. Nobody taxes education. It's never been done so there's feck all evidence.

...except in Greece, per the Economist article...don't you consider that to be research? In economics we'd say "great, a natural experiment". It caused "general mayhem" for exactly the reasons we've been cycling through on here: lack of capacity in state schools, school closures, job losses. They don't do it any more. They learned our lesson for us, must we really do it again with our guinea pigs children?

Are you joking? I really hope you are.

Absolutely not joking at all! No one cares about disrupting the education of those children who will no longer be able to afford to stay in their school - sometimes a school they have been in since they were 4! Therefore, why should we care about a bit of disruption for everyone else!

@Mum1976Mum You do know there are children living in terrible homeless hostels, who sleep in damp bedrooms, who are not getting any education? There are a lot of children whose needs I care for far more than a child who has been privately educated having to move to a state school with the support of loving parents.
Get a sense of perspective love.

There more exceptions you have in tax law the less effective it is and more expensive it is to enforce. You have this mess with cakes Vs biscuits is a classic VAT problem. For import duty when is a T shirt a dress, as the duty rates vary.

By trying to implement vat on one narrow definition then this will be done by exception, either the private schools or all the other activities. HMRC arnt known for there prowess in efficient administration, I can't see them suddenly changing there MO.

If this is the level of critical thinking that private school has taught you, I’d ask for your money back.

@NoisySnail I'm pretty sure that it's the duty of a parent to champion there child's cause to the rest of society.

It seems very acceptable for the left to use protest politics @Mum1976Mum is just following that lead for there own cause.

The failure of one parent to provide for there child is not a justification to be told to get back in there box and stop championing there child's interests.

The stratification of wealth is also true at the upper end so there are relatively few which would seem to be @StarlingsForever wealth and many more parents in with children in private schools who like @MisterChipsand others who have been most vocal in there concerns.

There is going to be a feedback loop where increase in fees is going to effect schools which have a higher proportion of let's say 'professional parents" than those which serve the genuinely wealthy. This may cause these schools to then put up fees to cover the loss of revenue. Causing more parents to leave/ not join the school, and so the feedback loop reinforces itself.

If the schools collapses the local council is going to struggle to find hundreds of places quickly in local schools. Building new schools in these areas is likely to be expensive and. Divert funds from the capex/building maintenance budget of other schools.

This is going to create substantial cost for the local council as amongst the parents I would imagine there are going to create a cohort of well resourced pissed off activist parents. For example
@Mum1976Mum

In my borough we are going to have even more problems with special school places. The state one is amazing, but you cannot get a place there unless your DC also has a physical disability (they have lots of physical disability asssitance, pools etc). So parents are already up in arms over not getting places there if their DC have complex learning disabilities but no physical disabilities. Some of these parents go to the independent SEN, pay up, waiting for EHCP to come through. Some DC are privately funded, no EHCP, it is very difficult to get one. If these independent SEN schools go bust we are truly screwed so I really hope our Council has a plan. And it is us council tax payers who will be paying for the mess so how people think this is not going to affect everyone in certain areas is beyond me. Have you actually looked at your Council’s budgets for the funding blocks and adult social care etc? Do you realise how stretched they already are? But yes, let’s go ahead and let some lot in Westminster live out their crazy ideology.

And also, let’s pretend it has nothing to do with trying to stuff the South East and London too, where lots of private schools are located, disproportionally so.