Don’t have more kids if you can’t afford them!

[SportMum1982]

I’m not a raving Tory! But honestly I would have loved more children!!! I would have loved 4 kids but I know we cannot afford 4 kids.

Why do people expect the state to pay for their children? Bar education though! If I’m being really cruel tell me, but I feel I did want more kids but stopped.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67999028

We are getting close to the end of this discussion and I don't think there's any more agreement than at the start.

To state my 2cents worth, I do think that better educated people make better parents. I also think that we all, globally, need to taper down birthrates for the sake of the planet burden. Women's education is crucial, because educated women have fewer children and do so later in life. They value education more highly, so their children are likely to do better.

Sure, some people climb out from hardscrabble backgrounds. I applaud them, but they are not the norm.

Now you’ve really shown your ignorance. Islam is a religion not a race. Oh dear I’m cracked up now.

Hence the success of the middle class. They understand that education is transformative, repeat it to their kids every single day. And lo, their kids go to school, with a full pencil case ready to learn, blank out the oik at the back who wants to reduce the whole class to idiocy or throw chairs, and go to university or into work.

While I agree with a lot of what you've said on this thread @threatmatrix having normal parents is a HUGE privilege.

In my role, I work with people whose parents were often on benefits and who did no actual parenting and now these people have no idea how to adult properly. That's why I don't think the state should be encouraging people to have as many kids as they want, forever supported by everyone else. The children grow up into damaged adults and the societal cost is great, with the cycle generally perpetuating down the years.

Once the 2 child limit has been in force for a generation, I suspect you will see much more personal responsibility being taken.

I don't think this was meant to be funny? But 😂

"For parents to invest in and push you, they need to understand the value of education themselves and this is middle class territory, really."

Good grief, what a classist thing to say...

Agree

"That's why I don't think the state should be encouraging people to have as many kids as they want, forever supported by everyone else. The children grow up into damaged adults"

..... and once again, the mistaken belief that a punitive welfare policy will effectively discourage those who the pearl clutchers on this thread see as worthless humans from having children.

If that was the case average family size would have grown since the late 1990's, as benefits for families became more generous, instead of continuing to fall.

The two child cap has been an ineffectual policy. It hasn't had any significant impact on birth rates in its intended target group, and it's pushed some of the poorest families in the UK into outright destitution, damaging the mental and physical health of parents and children, damaging children's chances in education, and contributing towards a perpetuation of the cycle of deprivation you say needs to be broken.

The fact that you're still doggedly ignoring these facts is depressing.

@izimbra i don't think they're worthless humans. However, if they are unable to see that having more children is pushing them into poverty, they are INCAPABLE of raising children. Even if you gave them a million pounds per child, they wouldn't be able to raise kids.

"Once the 2 child limit has been in force for a generation, I suspect you will see much more personal responsibility being taken."

Based on what? On what evidence?

it isnt right, have as many as you want but child b stops after 2 and no more additional benefits, its ridiculous!

Well giving people unlimited benefits in the past didn't work.

Time to try the other way and see what happens I think.

omg are you for real

"i don't think they're worthless humans. However, if they are unable to see that having more children is pushing them into poverty, they are INCAPABLE of raising children. Even if you gave them a million pounds per child, they wouldn't be able to raise kids."

Poor people around the world have children they struggle to provide for. You are 100% wrong that it's impossible for very poor people to raise loving, well adjusted children despite having very little in material terms. My own father was raised by an unmarried and uneducated mother of six on a council estate in the East end in the 1930's before the welfare state even existed. My mother was raised in abject poverty in the UK by a single mother after her father developed schizophrenia. I'm disgusted by your ignorance and your contempt for the poor.

To be honest @ThePeaAndThePrincess I just don't agree with you, and that's because it's not the reality I see on the day to day in my work with young people from backgrounds like you've described either. Never has been over the years and years of work I've done with hundreds of families with situations exactly as you've described. It doesn't even apply to my own family. There was abuse in my household, I went on to university and my sister had a teenage pregnancy and relied completely on benefits. The difference was that while we were both raised in abuse I was lucky that while both our first boyfriends were abusive to us, I wasn't raped by mine. The circumstances we were raised in made it harder to see the risks and she fell pregnant faster than she was able to learn that it wasn't right. I didn't and was able to cut ties and move on with my life. It doesn't always come down to choice the way you're kind of presenting. Luck and life has a role to play too.

I believe (because its what I've seen) that the vast majority of people want to do well, absolutely, but trauma is a huge thing. Generational trauma exists for a reason - because its very hard to break as you well know from your posts- and while yes absolutely some people go on and thrive and break that cycle and are able to parent really healthily which is amazing, many do not for a whole load of different reasons. Having children before you've got to an ideal point in dealing with trauma makes it so much harder but at that stage you might not be in a place to adequately prevent a pregnancy the way you maybe would have been in a year or twos time.

I don't think it's as simple as "not trying" the way you'd suggest. I think people, most people, actually really do their best but sometimes that trauma or lack of support networks or lack of resilience or confidence or the impact on their physical or mental health or whatever etc etc etc does get the better of them and that want and drive to better themselves falls to the wayside and other factors take over. Sometimes it's external factors whether you'd call it luck or simply being unable to identify bad situations (because you've been in those your whole life so they feel normal) and the consequences to that. I just don't think those people should be left behind just because they weren't a 'success story' doesn't mean they didn't try. It doesn't mean they don't matter. And it doesn't mean they don't love their children and want to be better parents. I think your thinking is a bit more black and white regards this than mine is.

You seem to think that families where parenting may be inadequate for any number of reasons - their own experience of poor parenting, learning difficulties, poor mental health, personal inadequacy, lack of good role models, chronic stress, very poor education, whatever - you think that these families will do BETTER if their basic needs for food, clothing and shelter aren't being adequately met because of punitive benefit cuts? Or you know it'll make life worse for them and their children, but you're good with that because you think they deserve to be punished for being inadequate, and their children are just collateral damage? 😞

BouncingJAS is absolutely spot on. Well said 👏

troll? I dont understand, i think child b should stop after 2? just my opinion , ok maybe 3 max but there has to be a limit surely?

Absolutely I grew up in a working class area, all of my friends were working class, I grew up working class. All my friends were encouraged by their working class parents to work hard and all went on to uni or run their own businesses now. My very working class dad is where I learnt my work ethic from. What utter bs.

Thank you for your compassionate words.

This thread has been profoundly depressing. Like you I think that most people, including really inadequate parents, still love their children, even though they may struggle to do right by them. I also believe that most children love their parents, even when those parents make selfish mistakes that hurt their children. The one thing I absolutely know is that piling social stress on already stressed families by pushing them into deep poverty NEVER makes anything better for parents or for children.

Yes, it's not on

What do you think accounts for the fact that white working class British boys are now the lowest educational achievers of all demographic groups (apart from children from traveller backgrounds, who have very high rates of non-attendance at school).

How you extrapolated I suggested taking away the vote from people I have absolutely no idea

Not sure experimenting on innocent children is the answer.