Don’t have more kids if you can’t afford them!

[SportMum1982]

I’m not a raving Tory! But honestly I would have loved more children!!! I would have loved 4 kids but I know we cannot afford 4 kids.

Why do people expect the state to pay for their children? Bar education though! If I’m being really cruel tell me, but I feel I did want more kids but stopped.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67999028

Some people are acting like the government hasn’t made steps towards reducing reliance on the welfare state.

The increase in funded childcare hours isn’t out of the goodness of their hearts. They are pushing parents into work, and I don’t think that’s wrong. I’ve said up thread, work is important for one’s wellbeing and motivation and for routine. I completely understand some people cannot work, of course, and this is where the state should step in.

Tax credits only came in in the nineties, before that the only government help for children was child benefit. We managed. Nowadays people see Tax credits as an absolute right that they can't manage without.

And the evidence on the two child cap is that it's been ineffectual at stopping people on low incomes/who aren't working from having more than two children
This is actually innnacurate. That research is clearly very biased. For one, it looked at a very small sample of 45 families. Most of the conclusion derives from qualitative information. It concludes that families of 3rd + children born after the cut off are living under higher level of poverty and higher mental issues. No kidding, mind blowing conclusion!

However, when it looked at number of birth comparing better off families, families with no children or only 1 and those on low income with already 2 children, it shows that the later did actually reduced birthrate.

It claims that it is not statistically significant but provides no evidence of that and the figure clearly demonstrates a reasonable decrease.

So it actually shows that the policy DOES correlate with a decrease of birth for that group.

I have been on benefits, I have 1 disabled child who admittedly got DLA and severely disabled element on tax credits. My income on benefits was far from poverty, I had a lot more disposable income than friends where both spouses worked. That in itself is a big part of the problem.

I dont exactly disagree with you, but at the same time surely everyone else does benefit from the production of new humans to fill various roles in society?

Some women are left being single mothers, because a man doesn’t want to help
sorry, but I cant help correcting, surely you mean because a man refuses to step up & fulfil his duty towards the child he co-created!

Here here !!!! @menopausalmare
This is a serious issue - men prentending they dont work and not paying any maintainance money towards their children and leaving everything financially ln the mother !

Also, inflation has increased dramatically over the last lot of years. People may think theyll manage but unfortunately everything is just more and more expensive.

My parents had 5 children, things were tight but there wasnt half the things to do, or big brands to be bought, or clubs, or when the children are a certain age/parties/FOMO from social media.

I am so sorry 🌺

At no point did I say that all parents in poverty are neglectful and abusive. It is so ridiculous that it is often impossible to discuss serious issues here without people deliberately misrepresenting what other posters say or apparently failing to read posts properly. What I said is that a subset of them are, and for these people giving them more money won't fix it or make the lives of the children who are unfortunate enough to be in their care decent. That in these cases- which would be easily identifiable by a properly funded children's services with competent social workers (a million miles from what we have now) - money should instead be spent on providing the children with a decent life away from their parents. International evidence proves that this can be done, with good outcomes for those children. Unfortunately this subset of the families living in poverty, where the poverty is not the cause of their troubles due to unfortunate circumstances but a symptom of the parents being incapable of functioning like normal adults and prioritising their children over themselves, is larger than many people realise

Very well put, @ThePeaAndThePrincess, though it would take a heck of a volte face on the part of the childrens' services you mentioned

Sadly, too many are infested with the popular "mustn't judge" mindset even when children are being blatantly abused, and I don't imagine that would be easy to overcome

I think you are being slightly unreasonable. I found out I was expecting my 3rd daughter in August. I have two other daughters aged 9&10 and this baby wasn’t planned. Two was enough to deal with financially. Contraception failed and after sitting and thinking about it, yes it was going to be tougher financially but it was manageable. Since December, I was made redundant with a weeks notice and being so far gone alternative job seeking was not an option. Then I have had to battle to get the company to pay my maternity so that was another added stress due to them losing my Matb1 form. So at any given moment a persons situation can change drastically!

I don’t agree with people having more when they are already struggling or over crowded in housing etc but truly no one can judge because none of us know the circumstances.

I don't want to come across any kind of way, but if you were finished (and don't want to have a termination), didn't your dp/DH consider a vasectomy?

If people are certain they don't want more, then there needs to be 2+ precautions.

Example: pill/coil + (pull out) and/Or (avoiding fertile days).

Then we each pay for our health care etc?

My daughter was only one when i fell pregnant with the twins and I needed spinal surgery so put his snip operation off and then the gp said it wasn’t available on the nhs in our area. He wore a condom and I was on the pill. I was devastated at the time.

I wouldn’t change the situation now as they have completed our family.

I was just trying to give my point that accidents and life changing events do happen.
we are fortunate to both have good jobs and we could afford the extra surprise babies.

Our welfare state is awful. We have so many healthy working age people who don't work and claim benefits with lots of children. It's not a daily mail myth. There are a lot of them. It is a lifestyle choice.

Benefits should only ever be short term when you lose a job and need a footing back up. Only a tiny minority of people are genuinely unable to work.

It's an appalling start for children to have an example of parents that do nothing. I genuinely feel that vouchers rather than money is the way forward. An allowance for uniform, healthy whole foods (I.e. pop, squash, cereals etc can't be bought with the food vouchers). That way the children are not missing out but the adults cannot abuse the system.

I got pregnant while unemployed and my the husband was unemployed and struggling financially. We could not afford it but things got better. I am glad I have my daughter. We ended up doing well financially. I don’t judge people because I remember the feeling of everyone judging. No baby shower, no gifts, no interest or offer of help whatsoever, just quiet disdain for my “irresponsible choice”. We literally camped and lived In our car. Finally went out of state to stay with my sister who was involved with pro life ministry at her church thousand miles away, which was a huge move but at least I felt welcome somewhere people weren’t judging. Had a place to stay. Got me baby clothes, and other necessities. I just could t go through with an abortion and yes it may have not been the best planning, but it worked out. I don’t regret it and I don’t judge other people

yeah it is pretty damn close if used correctly, and there are morning after pills.

That seems like a reasonable assumption but after 8 hours a week, the psychological benefits of work are the same as a 40hr week (Journal of Social Science & Medicine 2019)

This, and previous governments, have done nothing to reduce reliance on the state. What they have done is introduce punitive measures that do either little or the opposite to their stated aims.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48354692

Our society, economy, education & health service hasn't been broken by single parents, the poor, immigrants, the unemployed or benefit cheats. They're just convenient targets for justifiable anger.

Of course, I'm don't mean to sound like I'm criticising. And if you love and look after your children, then good for you and glad it's worked out

I've not had the ideal planned pregnancies myself and would be flogged if I came out with my own story🙊

People don't magically gain some kind of responsibility by having the benefit cap. Those with chaotic lives, who were always going to have multiple children they can't afford, simply carry on. But with the benefit cap those children may grow up in poverty with all the knock on effects for health, well being and educational attainment.

Children growing up in benefit cap families are poorer and being poorer has a well documented effect on educational attainment and health. See Joseph Rowntree foundation research. This includes being more likely to have crisis and unexpected pregnancies.

If you want people to have children later, when they have more stability and better wages, then you need to remove these children from poverty to break the cycle. Not plunge them into even worse poverty than their parents had.

The state could choose to support these youngsters in ways which result in better outcomes and life chances. This would be economically better for society in the longer term too.

But we have short- term politics and the benefit cap wins votes.

I think equally to blame as the absent fathers are the women who proudly declare they don’t need a man to raise their children.

My husband and I have six children. We both work, but don’t use childcare. This was something we decided back when our first was born and we reduced my working hours but also our spending. We live frugally so we can spend that extra money on our children. They don’t get a foreign holiday every year (hello camping), but I certainly wouldn’t class them as underprivileged or living in poverty.

I often wonder at the people who say they would love more than one child but can’t afford it. Parenting is self sacrifice and there are ways to bring up multiple children without relying on handouts.

As harsh as this sounds, there is also an onus on woman to then start making better choices.

Deadbeat dads are not new news. Nor is a woman being left with their lives completely altered after having kids. So woman need to start making sure they have a backup plan.

The absolute ideal is that the government enforces fathers to fulfil their roles if they fail. But here we are…

You can claim Child Benefit for as many children as you have!
The benefit cap is a different thing!

I agree, my friend has one child. Because her lifestyle and hobby only afford one child. She’s happy, can afford to treat her child to a nice life and do her expensive hobby (horse)

I feel like the reality of having children is vastly under advertised. Costs, supports, caps, childcare, perhaps if there was more education, no necessarily in schools, but in the public domain, it might deter people. I don’t know how to diplomatically share that into.
Such as:
they cost a lot, with worked examples.
your pelvic floor may never recover and you may come somewhat incontinent (let’s face it if this was talked about more this would be very off putting!!!)
its hard to make time as a couple once children come along
the government only support x amount.
then cast studies of children who grow up in poverty.
Your social life will take a hit, somewhat or completely.
children catch a lot of sicknesses, that’s really hard.
They are babies for a very short time, they are toddlers, teenagers etc for longer

I think too much is blamed on the government and lack of supports. But Rishi can’t put a condom on for people who have no real ability (or interest) in taking care of a child.
Sex is fun, raising a child is not that easy.

I’ll probably get linched for this but I totally agree caveating that by saying that circumstances can and do change, which when conceiving multiple children people won’t know, nobody can predict future situations, but I always wonder that if we lived in any other country without nhs and even without free schooling would people choose to have as many children as they do? Because essentially we are all paying into the education and nhs system to fund other people’s choices and just like you I would have loved a 3rd child but for financial reasons aswell as the over populating of the planet already, we stopped at 2, would the parents of the 22 children have had as many if the free schooling and nhs cover stopped at say 5 children? They always bang on about not claiming any government funding but essentially they are as there are 22 school places and 22,nhs and dental places used by one family which would cost them hundreds of thousands to fund if we didn’t have either, and the nhs is on its knees already, how long might it be before it collapses and those families with multiple children struggle even more than they do now to get the basic nhs dentist and doctors appointments and school places?