Don’t have more kids if you can’t afford them!

[SportMum1982]

I’m not a raving Tory! But honestly I would have loved more children!!! I would have loved 4 kids but I know we cannot afford 4 kids.

Why do people expect the state to pay for their children? Bar education though! If I’m being really cruel tell me, but I feel I did want more kids but stopped.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67999028

@Bubble2024

Replacement rate is about 2.1

What we need is a birthrate of about 1.8, so that the population keeps shrinking, but much more slowly. This would then be environmentally and financially sustainable.

What we have now is about 1.5, which is something we do need to improve. The issue is that we are making it very hard for higher earners to have children, while we incentivise lower earners to have more. This then creates huge problems as you end up with a lot of child poverty (which in the UK is getting worse).

You can get child benefit and free school meals even if you have 15 kids. It's UC and tax credits they capped at 2.

@VeryGoodVeryNice but that's fine. She WANTS lots of children, carry on (although the world can't keep going like this) but pay for them yourself and look after your children. The problem is that more and more is expected from the state. The latest being teachers having to supervise teeth brushing! I'm waiting for the 'teachers need to change nappies' and schools to provide evening meals for all children. It's madness.

I am a single parent of 4 children and receive UC to survive. I guess I’m one of those people you judge.
But when I got my pregnant for a 3rd time I had twins. We could afford the children we had.
I had been married for 10 odd years both of us working, owned a nice 4 bed detached house and never claimed a benefit in my life.
my life took a downward turn when the kids father became an alcoholic and I had to separate in order to protect mine and the kids mental health and give us a peaceful life. My circumstances changed so drastically in the space of 2 years.
but I guess all you’ll see is I’ve got 4 kids on benefits.

@SockieSockie I said we need a softer landing, I'm not sure what you are missing? and I said if birth rates stay as they are we will see more immigration. I also said the government have not been tough about immigration because they don't want to be.

I'm not sure what you think is irrational about those comments. It's very easy to say "the planet needs no more humans" but in reality there is nuance.

I would prefer to contribute more to the actual children rather than the adults. So all children from less well off families get free breakfast and school diners at school. Vouchers for school uniform etc. is that fair to parents that go without to provide all these things - no. But these children don't choose to be born to irresponsible parents. I would even be happy to pay more tax if it went towards laptops etc and book vouchers for these children. I really don't think it should be going to adults who have chosen to have that many children. Circumstances can change. I know that as my children's father became violent and pays the minimum but I then took on 2 jobs and got on with it. I know not everyone's health allows for that so there are exceptions. In general how many people's circumstances change enough that they thought they had enough money to support 5 children then suddenly they couldn't. I think the benefit of the cap on 2 children is right but things should be done to support the children directly.

@SportMum1982 so the person in the pic of the story already had two children when the benefit cap came into being in 2017?? she decided, in her infinite wisdom, to have another 3, yes 3 kids!!!!!!! is she expecting sympathy??? all her own fault that she is struggling and I have no sympathy! both I and my husband worked but we felt we could only afford 2 children! why should we subsidise people like her who dont know how to use contraception?????

How can a population thrive if jobs go and we can’t get taxes

The fiscal drag is ridiculous now but going forward we are all going to be paying more tax. I think they Amy have to start coming after wealth in some form too.

I hope someone is thinking about it already

I don't think they are, so many people don't even understand the issue.

May not Amy!

There are things to support the kids with education costs already. Schools apply for grants for the kids of parents who have low incomes. My sons school gave kids free books, tablets and covered the cost of every single school trip. They also had breakfast club for every child and obviously the low income kids got free school meals for lunch. It's called Pupil Premium schools claim it for the whole time the child's at the school, even if the parent then starts working. It's up to the school how they use the funding they get for that child so if your child's school trips aren't covered and they don't get free stuff, ask the school how they are spending the funding. As it's supposed to be used to benefit the child.

I think to an extent the state should pay for children because one day those children will pay for the state, and because there is a good return on the investment, and because it just for the state to provide, protect and care for children just as it is for the state to do so for other vulnerable individuals.

Obviously parents ought to take responsibility too but I personally I think our society is very un-childfriendly and the balance is not tipped far enough in favour of children. That's reflected in the falling birth rate and rising inequality and poverty affecting children. We will pay a heavy price tomorrow for deprived childhoods today.

"According to population projections from the Office for National Statistics, the number of people in the UK aged 65 or over is expected to increase by 35% from 12.5m in 2020 to 15.9m in 2040. This contrasts with a projected 2% increase in those aged between 20 and 64 over the same period (38.9m to 39.5m) and a projected fall of 11% in those aged under 20 (15.6m to 13.9m). "

We need higher taxes & cuts to public spending...

Couldn’t agree more.

Why should I fuck off? It boils my piss that I've worked fucking hard to support my 2 dc (single parent, one father paying cms at 16% but dodging every other responsibility) while she doesn't care about the 2 child cap as her 'baby daddies' are reliably coughing up their hard earned cash every month so she can concentrate on being a slummy mummy dragging her DC up with a neverending parade of men in and out of their lives.

I guess it's about the moral situation - should women/families be having more babies than they can comfortably support THEMSELVES without relying on state handouts, and giving those children good role models of work ethic and financial stability? My niece is doing neither; her DC are sadly statistically likely to have several of the social indicators leading to lower education achievements, lower lifetime earnings and lower life expectancy. That, sadly, is the outcome for millions of children in the UK and beyond (have a look at the statistics for children on FSM, white British boys, children who have EAL, ALL minority group children. It's a very hard read)

Whilst I believe that the 2 child cap is much needed, there's a huge gap in education of women such as in the bbc report which can show them what having multiple kids in a low-income family does their long term outcomes.

@MissersMercer Are you aware just how low your income has to actually be to be eligible for pupil premium?

There are so many families struggling financially (with parents on universal credit and one or both parents working full time) that earn ‘too much’ for things like pupil premium, but could do with additional financial help in some form.
These are the families still having to turn to food banks. I think it’s abysmal that working families are in this position (regardless of number of children!) and something has to change.

Surely employers need to be held accountable as essentially the government is using universal credit to top up wages to an acceptable standard, when people working full time should be payed a proper wage without having to rely on top up funding to fund the basics (and still struggling!)

Yes I know. I myself am a single parent working part time with a disabled child who doesn't get free school meals or the pupil premium as my earnings are too high apparently. I still think it's a good scheme.

@BloodyAdultDC
Using the phrase ‘slummy mummy’ is an absolutely horrific, classist, misogynistic thing to say.
Disgusting.

I will only have 2 kids max, because what If something bad happens to the dad... he's not here bringing in an income. I need to be able to support them. so I won't have more. People don't think ahead

And of course because CMS is not counted as income she is getting government benefits as well. The parent who receives zero from the father has only the government benefits.

The birth rate is dropping below 2 in most western countries. At the same time the UK population is projected to be 73 million by 2035. This increase is entirely due to immigration. We need a younger work force to keep society going. Low birth rates are largely caused by adverse economic conditions. We should probably cap benefits at 3 children to help with this

I have 4.

I was (am still as battling to divorce him) married, we helped my dad run a successful family business which we were due to take over, I, alone owned my own home, I'd known him since I was 15.

He left me whilst pregnant with our 4th and final child for another mum from the school.

I, and my dad, lost everything, the business, homes and in the case of my dad additional properties during the domino effect.

Luckily, my children were all born prior to the 2 child cut off. Luckily, I've managed to rebuild my life and get a reasonable paying job, but we are struggling and that's private renting a too small house on a salary of £35k a year. And luckily I still qualify for some UC and CB.

I know there are people abusing the system but let's not penalise the people that aren't.

The two child cap is a cr*p, ill thought out policy, that's causing more harm than good. It's not had any significant impact on birthrate. It's designed to be punitive, and the people who are being punished are children living in larger families.

https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/research-for-the-world/politics/two-child-benefit-cap-poverty#:~:text=Introduced%20in%202017%2C%20the%20UK,term%20opportunities%20and%20life%20chances.

But it's popular with the 'poor people shouldn't have flat screen TV's' Daily Mail/Telegraph/mean spirited contingent who don't have the foresight to understand that policies that push the poorest families in the country further into poverty are incredibly damaging to public health and to children's education.

I'd much rather support immigration. The type of women that are having baby after baby generally speaking are not very bright, and their dc are statistically more likely to have dc when they are very young too so "would love to be able to work but I can't".

I was saying exactly the same thing to DP earlier. Immigrant families more than pay their way in this country.

I stopped at two because two was what I could afford on our combined income. I would have liked another, but time, space, finances all put paid to a third.

Since then my marriage broke down and I'm on a single income but I manage. I'd be totally fucked if I had more though!

I understand circumstances change, but I also don't think it's the states responsibility to pay for people choosing to have 4, 5, 6 children. If we were in the US, I'd have a different take, but it is a choice in the UK. Not necessarily an easy choice, but it is a choice.