VAT on private school fees - will it change how you vote?

[Iwishicouldflyhigh]

Following on from the other interesting thread about whether it will be implemented, will this policy change how you vote either way?
For me - i've voted Labour and Tory over the years, but Tory for the most recent GE's. This year, i've been thinking seriously about how i'd vote at the next GE and it wasn't definitely a Tory vote - i was definitely a floating voter.
However, my children are at PS and so i will now most definitely be voting Tory (not just because how the VAT will seriously impact us - child number 3 will now not be going to the prep that we had lined up for her, she'll enter the local primary until secondary school - but how i think that it will affect schools negatively and children negatively).
I have a lot of left leaning friends who educate privately and whilst they cannot bring themselves to vote Tory, they won't vote Labour either at the next GE because of this policy.

It seems to me that this policy is only a vote loser (ie many Labour voters and 'floaters' who school privately won't vote for them at the next GE) and not a vote winner (ie i can't imagine that many Tory or 'floaters' will vote for Labour solely on this policy).

AiBU to think that Labour have really shot themselves in the foot with this idea?

I don't know who to vote for apart form definitely not the Tories. But I am against the VAT on fees purely because we live in an 11+ area which means it pushes more privileged people into the grammar system squeezing people on lower incomes and less access to 11+ tutoring out.

People will get taxed up to a point. The trick is to get the tax without changing behaviour so they opt out.

People who are keen to stump up other people’s money may find they run out.

Nowhere else considers education a luxury item btw

I consider private education a luxury

Thats great. Are you ready to fill the gaps with your tax when people opt out of your preference of hitting people with higher taxes?

I think you're overestimating the gaps. It's a small minority who will be affected. I'm sorry if that's you, but it's a huge number of people who have been and will be unfairly affected under the Tories. Obviously it sucks if you're in the small number of people who are massively impacted, but the majority of society will be better off when the Tories are gone.

Luxury has nothing to do with VAT, which is the EU's general sales tax

Other sales taxes (including the old luxury tax) had to be abolished when VAT was brought in when we joined EU, as we had to join the harmonised system and there were limits to how far countries could depart from the central system)

Now post-Brexit, we could indeed add a new luxury tax if we wanted to. Just as we could now tax fees for education

I can see why people will be irritated by this vote grabbing farce.

It will damage a sector and disrupt dc.

How much extra funding are you expecting under Labour anyway?

At some point the people you’re relying on for more and more will say sod it… then what?

Absolutely right. I would add to this that having children in this country is a luxury.

@EasternStandard and @Charlie2121

Almost all of Western Europe have higher higher rate taxes than the Uk (eg France 55%) so are you looking at the US? Or Asia?

Am I sure about what? Taking each point in my post:

Private schools pay a lot of VAT. Yes, private schools pay VAT on goods and services supplied to them. This is true whether or not the school is a charity. State schools also do so.

At the moment they are unable to reclaim that VAT whereas state schools can. Yes state schools can reclaim the VAT they pay as public bodies under s33 VAT Act 1994. Private schools are not public bodies and cannot do so. It is true that some private schools may also supply goods and services that attract VAT (e.g. hiring out the buildings for conferences and weddings) and that if this is the case they can offset the VAT related to the supply of those goods and services (e.g. the catering service for the conference or wedding). They cannot offset the VAT incurred in supplying educational activities against these business activities.

This means that state schools are in an advantageous position on VAT compared to private schools. Yes, see above. State schools can reclam VAT paid in supplying education, private schools cannot.

There is a lot of confusion on this proposal. Yes. I think that is fairly clear form looking at the threads on this issue on here. That is not surprising, it is complex and many of the politicians discussing it also sound confused.

@Heatherbell1978 the £60k was a poster upthread privately educating 3 kids.

@EasternStandard who do you think I rely on for 'more and more'? More and more what? Taxes? My household pays plenty of tax money, presumably you do too? So we're both doing our bit.

I rely on society, as do you. I do not rely on benefits (luckily) or top ups. I do rely on my neighbours being healthy and well educated, because otherwise my life is negatively impacted. I rely on the NHS, and all public services same as you.

For me, what I want more of is access to functioning services and an equitable society. I want more children given more opportunities. Private school is in direct opposition to my values, so I don't oppose taxation.

None of those. This is more macro than personal. What happens when politics shifts to get the rich. We haven’t had that for a long time for a reason, not under Blair last time they were in

Not sure which thread but @BouncingJAS sums up well the problem we’re walking in to. If that pans out I’m glad to not be stuck

Only because the majority of society are not net contributors.

It is such a naive short term approach to take. It won’t end well that’s for sure.

What won't end well - a Labour government? I guess we'll see, can't be worse than what we've had for the last 12 years!

Private education is a luxury and is a manifestation of extractive capitalism that has undermined equitable access to education. Post second world war to the late 70s was the only time that Britain has broken that economic inequality and simultaneously reduced poverty. Since 1980 Britain has moved from a position of one of the most equal richest nations to the second (after the U.S) most unequal richest nations. I think this is demonstrable everywhere you look, levels of inequality are off the scale and it is so depressing that people want to perpetuate that especially via our children through educational opportunities, who we should be lifting up not ensuring the demise of. Economically, the country would be better off if it moved towards balance again as we don't want all the Boom and bust scenarios which what ends up happening with purchasing power being in the hands of the few.

The professional classes are not sending their children on mass to private schools anymore, I am from that class, our earnings from a national point of view are good as are many of our friends and only one can afford private school (which I don't agree with) and that is because their job involves an income from the super wealthy. Therefore, how can anyone argue this determines their vote, the economy would be better off with a return to purchasing power amongst the many not the few- a rising tide lifts all boats!

@EasternStandard

The biggest tax rise in years is happening right now. £8bn a year extra raised from people earning £40k a year as 3m middle income people are pulled into the higher tax bracket.

This is a far bigger tax and fairness issue than the £1.3bn VAT on private schools would raise from 3-500k people who are able to afford £20k a year on school fees.

You make it sound as though the rich are being unfairly squeezed and will at some point up and quit. It's a nice story but not really a reflection of what is happening

Absolutely this!

I have a close family relative, rich and voting Labour as the bigger economic picture is what is important. They were Tories before and they work in the city.

People change behaviour all the time. The mistake is from some is that they think it’s static.

State dependency is very high already. Much higher and well good luck

They won't quit and this is exactly why we shouldn't be basing our economy on the very few having purchasing power it is flawed!

The majority if parents who use private school will vote Tory regardless of VAT. They may lose a few votes with this policy but will probably gain a lot more. I don't think the majority of the population are too upset at the idea of private school fees going up.

Yes very convenient to forget that the biggest tax grab since WW2 is happening under the Tories.
Its still happening, THs have been frozen until 2028, student fee THs frozen and amounts where loans become payable lowered.

This all hits the lower paid, who aren't moaning at the unfairness of it all.

As far as i can see, the fact that we've had at least 3 full threads on school fees and VAT shows how keen the wealthy are to hang on to every penny they've got.

The moaning of "oh we will leave country...." doesn't seem to apply to NHS workers who really are leaving the UK, anti VAT posters don't care about that as they all have PHI.
Talk about Pull the ladder up jack.

And yes, if you really are going to struggle to pay the VAT, then forego the annual ski trip and the music lessons, welcome to what the vast majority of state school parents don't have access too.

We're in Surrey and I have two kids in PS. Our school culture/demographic is quite liberal and left-leaning.

Based on the group chats, people are panicking because they simply haven't got 20% more.

For a lot of folks, PS is an alternative to a huge mortgage or religious affiliation which are the "fees" you pay to attend state school around here.

I mean seriously, I drive past one of the schools on my daily school run and the houses are ginormous. Loads of brand new Tesla's, Porsche's and BMW's in the queue.

Whereas at our school I tend to see older cars. But, I digress.

Politically, I can see this policy result in a gain for Lib Dems in more affluent areas that are traditionally Tory, but where Labour don't have much presence.

For example, most of our councils are now LD run. Hampshire will be the same. I'd guess Dorset is similar.

These small LD wins in key areas like this could result in an unexpected coalition.

I agree that we need to improve/invest in state education. However, the impact of this won't be felt the same everywhere.

Using my own situation as an example, there are 5 Private Schools all within close proximity of each other (approx 5 miles) and 3 state schools, that are all oversubscribed.

Now, some people drive a distance to attend the PS's. However, even looking at the schools on my "doorstep," there are 5 PS and about 5 state schools that are also all oversubscribed.

So all it takes is for 2-3 kids per year from each school to leave and it'll flood the system.

We'll see it across the 'Stockbroker Belt' in places like Kent, Hampshire and Surrey where people move when they can no longer afford or get tired of London.

@Goldenbear
The whole approach to the problem of solving inequality is wrong. The policy is very much looks like "bolsheviks" let's confiscate in share between everyone. Whereas a more effective approach would be to create a very academically competitive free schools for abled children so the idea of private education becomes just prestige rather then academic.

People expecting extra funding - I’m not sure how much change they think will happen from these gimmicky policies?

If what some are predicting does pan out, I’m glad to have other options

On this policy my preference would be to talk about smaller state class sizes instead, since rolls are falling. That removes some of the USP from private and is more carrot less stick