Do you think labour will actually implement 20% vat on school fees?

[labpit]

We have two in Year 7 and year 10 and I am not sure what we will do if this happens. It is a certainty do you think?

What do you think separates a 'good' state school from a 'bad state school'?

Presumably the good ones are those which parents and students are happy with and which get good results, and the bad ones vice versa.

I think the question meant how is it that some schools are good, and some are not.

Although state funding does vary a bit by school, there must be something different that the SLT and teaching staff are doing at a school that achieves good results, despite all the same recruitment and behavioural problems, vs a school that doesn't.

But working out what that is, and how to replicate it at other schools, is easier said than done.

So, so much ‘I’m alright jack’ on this thread (just like every other thread about private schools). It makes me sad that people don’t appreciate just how much difference it could make for the good of society if just a small proportion of kids doomed to failure by the state system could be rescued. So it’s the fault of the parents? Undoubtably that is a contributor but does that mean fuck the kids? Seriously?

I would like labour to ringfence the 1% from PS tax to provide extra curricular activities for state schools with the highest proportion of disadvantaged children. The ability to participate in interesting sport, music, arts or tech programmes could make a huge difference in whether kids stay engaged or are lost completely. Private schools are offering already privileged kids enviable ExC programmes offering multiple choices like
film-making, computer-game design, MMA etc whereas struggling state secondaries can manage one specialism only and can barely scrape together enough money to buy basic equipment.

The tories’ levelling up agenda never went anywhere near schools. This labour policy is a promising start but won’t make anywhere near enough a difference - Starmer needs to study closely the reforms in education made by Blair & Balls and come up with much much more.

If labour said they were going to do this, I'd actually be in favour. But they're not. It'll go in the general sinking fund and won't help anyone.

@TheHoover that is a great idea, I wish that was the sort of thing Labour had in mind!

RockaLock - that goes way beyond the school and is more about the local community and demographic.

I live in a deprived rural area. The attainment at the local secondary is poor. The school is very undersubscribed due to its poor reputation. This has a huge knock on impact on funding - 30 kids down in a year is approx £150k budget down. The opportunities in our local area are poor - there is a lack of leisure facilities, few employers offering above min wage and no public transport. Why would any aspirational young teachers want to come and live around here. All of this impacts on the culture and attitudes of residents and students. It is very sad.

It's a better system, I think - less stratified socioeconomically and crucially in many/most of those countries faith schools are in the private sector.

In my own home country, there is more or less a base cost for all pupils. State pupils get topped up by the state, largely for capital costs but also recognising the public good of universal education and a few other factors (eg the demographics of their intakes) while private schools are topped up by parents or the religious institutions that run them, or both. Of course some schools in the private sector are vastly more expensive and "elite" than others, and there are some uncomfortable anomalies (Catholic schools get more per pupil funding than other private schools) but overall you don't have the nonsense of faith schools being in the state sector, faith education is properly subsidised by the organisations that benefit from education in a particular faith, and private education isn't just restricted to a tiny percentage.

It's not perfect and I think there are better systems out there. But I think it's definitely better than the English system.

“The worst thing this country has done is handing out top up benefits to the poor because it just meant that employers got away with underpaying them and zero hours contracts. Everyone needs to contribute to the system properly. Everyone needs to pay actual tax, that is what all the research shows. And every person deserves a decent living wage.”

Another Blair cock up and of course if the Tories eliminate it they are wicked. What a mess!

Yes, Doctorbear, that is certainly true for a lot of areas. The charity I work for has one of its aims to try to improve education in deprived areas, so I am only too well aware that there are shockingly large numbers of schools in the exact situation you describe.

But equally, there are schools in my local area (South London) that vary hugely in terms results and satisfaction and attainment and extra curricular stuff etc, and that isn't due to a change in demographics, it's something within the school.

Another Blair cock up and of course if the Tories eliminate it they are wicked. What a mess!

torys have had 13 years to implant decent NMW, but instead it’s trickled upwards, until this year when it’s had to have a 10% rise as it was such a low figure.

By raising NMW it reduces benefit payments overall

I couldn't agree more. If we say the cost of education for each child is X amount. That child should benefit from that whether they are in a private school or not. In Scandinavia it is paid to the school of your choice. Usually there's nothing else to top up, but if there is, it's very little in comparison to regular private school fees. For example a school our children went to charged 30K for interntational students and 2K a year If you got the state subsidy. Another school they went to didn't have any additional expenses.

If you are paying taxes where is your child's fee going to and why isn't it being paid to the private school or reimbursed as tax relief? Now you have to pay VAT for education.

I hope schools are smart and change school fees to "donations" since they are charities.

Why do you thinking punishing people who can currently afford private school is the way forward? Surely looking at other countries and learning from them would be more beneficial for all. If you look at the system in Scandinavia for instance all children are entitled to a certain amount of money for their education. This is paid to a school of their choice and allows any child to attend private / state school. For most schools there's nothing to top up if you choose private - it just means most schools offer the same standard of education and opportunities.

People could choose to remove their children and home school them by paying private tutors and paying for extracurricular activities which is actually less expensive. Then what will you do?
Or private schools could remove fees altogether and accept donations instead. This country just loves to screw people over.

I suppose it would also be acceptable to charge VAT on nursery fees - most are private, universities and students halls - they are all private. Or would that be different?

There are plenty of Doctors and high earning professionals who went to state schools! Most of the kids are in Private Schools because their parents got them tutored to pass the entrance exam not because they’re so clever they could do it off their own back. So on that basis if you think your child could be tutored to get better grades and the state system is failing (which I agree with you it is) then why not let them see some diversity at the local school but help them along the way in their education there? As parents we can’t be outsourcing everything

I also want to say that the system is crazy and the whole catchment area bollocks is just another way to drive people insane and ensure they have empty pockets.

How about we live in a fair society, where all people are given a level pegging and good opportunities? If all children were given that lovely start I’ve no doubt we’d be turning out the best of the best at everything in the world. It’s so sad that naturally bright children don’t get that opportunity to excel and climb the social ladder.

There’s so many private schools around here and most of my kids parents are running themselves ragged to work out how to get them in. Mine are still primary age but loads have started going over already to ensure a place for secondary (although that’s not guaranteed!) it seems like an insane amount of pressure IMO.

Ah yes employers will pay a decent wage if only the employee didn't have a state "top up"

Makes you wonder why they never did pre income support (first introduced in the 1940) massively increased by the Tories in the early 70s

Business will pay the lowest wages possible, Governments will too, staff in the NHS on the lower bands earn peanuts.

However i do agree ZHC should only be allowed in exceptional circumstances, perhaps with students working PT.

@Araminta1003 You are missing @edwinbear point, which is a number of private schools will fold due to the policy probably if 20 per cent of cohort withdraw due to it they can’t survive so the remaining 80 per cent end up needing places. In some areas they will just go to the remaining private schools but in remote areas this may not be possible

You are stating as fact that schools will close, yet over the last decade or so, as fees have totally outstripped inflation, children in the private sector has gone up.

Is this your opinion or have you some facts to support your belief? the IFS doesn't support your ideas.

@Absolutely45 a number of private schools are going bust already due to Covid and cost of living and teacher pensions and grounds to maintain (Refurb costs through the roof) and this will increase with VAT and the Labour Party will get the blame. Most recently a school part of the Whitgift Foundation Old Palace folded and this was Outer London and a big shock. ISC have been pointing this risk out for ages.
The elite schools will use their brand abroad increasingly to raise funds (partnerships locally) but the smaller players will fold and taken over by for profit private nurseries, care homes and also for profit private schools. You already have a lot of issues that have cropped up recently in those sectors (care/nursery) with private equity involvement and overseas shareholders so be really careful. You currently have a flourishing mainly charitable private education sector which isn’t perfect but it works overall.
The lack of equity in society is a huge problem but more to do with housing costs, unfair wage distribution, lack of wealth taxes, poor nutrition and poor parenting. It won’t be easy to fix but you need to look at what other countries have done like Finland to get the real inspiration - funding, prestige for teachers who are incredibly educated, buy in from all in the community in the state sector.

School are already closing though? Fees have outstripped inflation and then covid, brexit, war in ukraine and a huge cost of living rise happened and parents are struggling to pay the bigger fees. There is also a downward trend in demographic. Schools are merging or forming chains to deal with it and some are just closing. Lots of single sex schools are becoming mixed sex to open up their market. Boarding schools are taking far more international students to fill the gap. The actual percent of pupils educated privately isnt 7% anymore. Its a much qouted fugure, but its more 5.9% across the whole uk and 6.5% in england.

Of course people are going to catastophise if they are against this suggestion but small schools are genuinley vulnerable to closure.

State primaries are in the same position, especially in London. It is demographics.

Private school places will always fluctuate due to a number of factors.

I think it is hard to defend private schools because you want an exclusive education for your children due to most not being able to afford it, but then deplore the fact that they might become too exclusive for you.

@Araminta1003
A census by the Independent Schools Council (ISC) for January 2022 found there are now a record 544,316 pupils at 1,388 ISC member schools, a 2% rise on the 2020 figures.
Every UK region has seen a boost in pupil numbers at independent schools with the largest growth in the South West – a 3.6% rise.

The next highest rise was seen in the North West and Wales, where numbers had risen by 3% in both regions, and then the North East where there was a 2.5% increase.
The regions with the lowest rises were London (0.8%), Scotland (0.9%) and Yorkshire and the Humber (1.7%).

So what schools are closing and is this a result of larger ones incorporating them or very localised demographics.

For me it’s a poor policy although high economic illiteracy will see it through

Plus a good old dash take from others and envy

It’s the first gov we’ve had in a long time to rely on such tactics. Blair didn’t - he had other flaws but not this

If we ‘get the rich’ enough we can all get poorer and vote accordingly and bottom out somewhere nice

@izimbra you are incorrect. Parents who privately educate their children do so because the state sector is woefully inadequate. It would be great if all children were educated to the standard of the private sector. Why would anyone want to oppose that? Don’t let the clear chips on your shoulder make this a race to the bottom.

You *and others) keep insulting people with "Economic illiteracy" why? adds nothing to the discussion & what makes you so sure you re right?

I consistently say 50/50 on this as i want to see Labours workings.

Taxing the better off is how it has to go now, the UK has too many people who have SFA.

Income, property, assets and unearned income will have to be taxed more, as the IMF have just said the UK needs to re build it infrastructure and build in more monetary resilience.

Even hunt is now saying he has little room for tax cuts.

Well we all have our views

As you do yours

And yes I think it’s the case. It’s an emotive policy similar to the Brexit bus

I can see why it’s popular but that doesn’t mean I agree it’s a good policy

I can’t see it as anything other than triumph of human nature over economic reality. I can’t help how I judge stuff it’s a product of my education like anyone else

And I get it’s bugging you but as you say you want facts. So don’t include yourself under the term

There’s many more who do not want the analysis