Do you think labour will actually implement 20% vat on school fees?

[labpit]

We have two in Year 7 and year 10 and I am not sure what we will do if this happens. It is a certainty do you think?

I'm also a little unconvinced that very many people who can't afford the VAT on school fees are going to move into the (more expensive) catchment of a desirable school and pay the stamp duty and all the costs associated with moving.

(I fully accept that there will be some people for whom this makes financial sense, living in areas of relatively cheap housing where stamp duty, legals, estate agent fees and moving costs would be lower than VAT on school fees. I'm just not sure that those are going to be significant numbers.)

To inject some humour into this debate....

As I have previously said, I have a ds on an academic scholarship at an Indie. He will do Maths, Further Maths, Physics & DT A'levels with a view to engineering.

The local comps don't do a'levels, the closest 6th form college is 27 miles away and there's no bus. I work full time as a single mum so I can't do school runs.

I've just checked our local taxi firm for a price to drive him to and from school every day, 39 weeks a year under contract.

And it would cost more than his school fees! 😂😂😂

Honestly, you couldn't make it up. I literally will not be able to afford state education. If the 20% goes on his (half) fees, I will struggle to pay that too.

I disagree with private education but chose it for a while because it was the right thing for DC (yes massive amounts of cognitive dissonance but life isn’t clear cut sometimes) and we could. I don’t hate them and have many friends that use them but I wish they didn’t exist as they perpetuate social inequality. I support the VAT on fees because it’s FAIR. Not out of spite or hate. It’s just what’s right. We don’t need to see it as an ‘us and them’ issue or something decisive. It’s just fair that if you can afford luxuries you pay a little back into the system.

There needs to be a wider discussion on the funding gap between regions, I know it's complex and it's difficult to do a like by like comparison but why is there so little debate on why funding and outcomes are so different in London vs some regions.

How does paying VAT on private school fees make it fair? They are already paying for state education (through taxes), private ed through fees and reducing the state school burden by not going there.

I disagree with private education but chose it for a while because it was the right thing for DC (yes massive amounts of cognitive dissonance but life isn’t clear cut sometimes.

Trappedandunhappy not just cognitive dissonance but unbelievable hypocrisy.
If you really disagreed with it you wouldn’t have used it.

Edinburgh will be an interesting example to watch play out if there is movement from private to state. 1 in 4 pupils in Edinburgh are privately educated with no capacity in many state schools, many of those privately educated pupils are in the catchment of good schools - it would most likely see placement requests for the better off schools being denied to accommodate those that are in catchment.

I disagree with private education but chose it for a while because it was the right thing for DC (yes massive amounts of cognitive dissonance but life isn’t clear cut sometimes) and we could. I don’t hate them and have many friends that use them but I wish they didn’t exist as they perpetuate social inequality.

My God that is absolutely breathtaking.

I support the VAT on fees because it’s FAIR.

And because your DC have now finished school presumably.

@Trappedandunhappy 'I disagree with private education but chose it for a while because it was the right thing for DC (yes massive amounts of cognitive dissonance but life isn’t clear cut sometimes.'

So happy to deny others, the advantages you have made use of !

That says it all really.

What profits? Most small independents are not profit making. The money is spent on educating the children.

@WhyIhatebaylissandharding
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED565743.pdf

There has been lots of research into London schools. However, it may be historic because London has now witnessed an exodus of school children post Covid. So who knows what will happen going forward.

Yeah. It was hypocritical but you’d be surprised at how many of us parents there agreed that in an ideal world all children would have equal opportunities and that the private school gave our children a leg up unfairly.

I guess I felt I shouldn’t let my values dictate what I do for them. I am a vegan but don’t enforce that on them either. I’m not religious but was prepared to go to church with them if they chose that (religious GPS often try to get them to).

I hold my hands up. I’ve been hypocritical in the pursuit of giving my DC the best chances. I can hold two positions at once. I both want to do the best for DC future AND wish that the world worked differently (and campaign and vote for that).

I also teach my DC about how privileged they are. We are comfortable but not wealthy - basic cars, cheap holiday if we take one, average but detached house - but we don’t worry about putting food food on the table, we have our health for now, we can heat our home etc etc. so many in the world right now are struggling to meet basic needs for safety, shelter and food.

In this country we have obscene inequality and private schools add to and support that inequality. So I don’t agree with their existence. But me not using one and denying my DC that opportunity when it was the best option for them at that time wasn't going to bring the system down.

They make money. Yes it might get used to further develop facilities etc but they don’t have to keep margins so wide.

@labpit. what about those from the state sector?

I’m not denying anyone anything?!

I just agree that VAT on fees is fair and that the system needs to change.

I don’t agree with lots of things that I make use of because I’m pragmatic not dogmatic. My little tantrum and storming out of something I don’t like won’t change things. My vote might.

Yeah, voting to withhold from others what you happily took for yourself.

You still haven't explained why you think that VAT on top of fees (+ tax paid normally towards education + not burdening the state school system) is fair.

Nothing to do with the ethics of private school or otherwise BUT

Labour aren't saying this 20% will sort out all the issues in state schools. It's not the brexit bus situation at all as they acknowledge this money would be a drop in the ocean of school underfunding.

Private schools are exempt from VAT as they're charities. Do you really think its right that Eton is a charity? Wellington, Stow??? Its just not.

It’s really not that hard to grasp. I put my DCs needs at that time before my own values. Like I disagree with the dairy industry but didn’t want to risk any health complications by giving my young DC a vegan diet. We compromise our own wants, needs, wishes all the time as parents. It was hard to compromise a value but DH had a different view too and I’m not a dictator. Me ‘taking a stand’ would have changed nothing but my DCs early school experience. So…

Id have been happy to pay VAT at the time. There was talk of removing charitable status during one election at the time we were using Private ED too and a number of parents felt that was fair. A few of the very wealthy would have happily paid more tax too.

You can be in a position of privilege and want to change it at the same time.

I have in other posts. It’s a luxury. Simple as.

And those it effects are some of the most privileged and wealthy in the world, so crying and wailing over a possible extra 20% is just grotesque given there are people raising children within the most appalling of circumstances - in this country.

I put my DCs needs at that time before my own values.

It’s immaterial why you did it. The fact is you did - you were happy to benefit from something which now you would push out of reach of others by increasing the fees, or remove entirely because you ‘disagree’ with it. Funny how when it’s your own DC they ‘need’ to go private yet when it’s other people they merely choose it as a luxury. What’s to say their DC don’t have the same ‘needs’ as yours did?

If you had any decency you would just step away from the argument, rather than now scrabbling to justify your own actions and why your scruples should apply to ‘other people’ but not you.

Private schools are exempt from VAT as they're charities.

I’m not sure how many more times this needs to be pointed out, but the VAT and charity aspects are separate. Around half of private schools are not charities, even now, but they don’t have to charge VAT. They do not have to charge VAT on fees because education is exempt under the VAT legislation. Stripping all schools of charitable status (which even the Labour Party are no longer proposing) would have no effect on the VAT position. It needs a change in the VAT legislation.

It’s surprising how many people have such strong opinions on something they clearly don’t understand.

Private schools are exempt from VAT as they're charities. Do you really think its right that Eton is a charity? Wellington, Stow??? Its just not.

Doyouknowwhatimean so what can be done about it?

It is a luxury, but the alternative is that they stay in state schools and cost the government vastly more money as they will have to find more staff, schools, ect to cover the extra people.

I think personally that they government will actually loose money by implementing this when those who aren't filthy rich stop going to private schools and then the government will have to cover the costs of their education.