To retrain as doctor in 40s! Read specifics!

[UsuallyIwouldsayUABUBut]

I just searched for a thread on this as I know there have been some before, and indeed that I myself have even commented and voted to say that the poster is being VVVV U. It does seem mad to embark on a course that won't finish until you are practically 50 and then even given we are all going to work til our 70s, that's only 20 years, i.e. a half career.

However.... due to personal circumstances, I am living overseas in a country in which it is possible to study medicine more cheaply that the UK, and it's still very well regarded. We will be here for at least the 6 years required to study (timeline isn't a problem). I could probably get the foundation years in too, or at least a couple of them.

I don't enjoy the job I trained to do. I'm currently doing it from home but I won't progress this way. I don't think it will be particularly easy to achieve the level I was at after we move back to UK (current plan). And anyway, I don't enjoy it.

I'm not under financial pressure, I would like to have a career I can be proud of though. DH would prefer me to work but there's no particular need to make more money. I haven't discussed this with him yet.

I did science A-levels and got good grades (a zillion years ago, I remember nothing). There is a single test to do to apply called an IMAT, I assume I'd have to study.

Thoughts? Until this idea popped into my head I would have thought this was mad, but it kind of seems like I've been given the runway to do it without the usual issues that people cite.

I know someone who trained as a GP at 43. They're in their 50s now and loving it. 20 years is a decent chunk of time and lots retire and keep working in some way shape or form using their medical knowledge. I see no problem of you've got the grades and can pass the entry exam (which is very tough!)

I would love to go back and study medicine. For me I never like the idea of patients but as I have gotten older it's more appealing than it was previously. For me the hours and stress would be too much. I have a mental health condition that needs stability and routine in order to keep it in remission.

Instead I have moved to a field adjacent to medicine. It did take as long to qualify a 4 year integrated masters plus year work experience then 4.5 year PhD then a training year but I love the combination of medicine and science.

If your personal circumstances would be conducive with being a med student and Jr doctor why not explore what the logistics of studying medicine would look like and what the admissions team have to say about older students.

I would also look at other careers that go alongside medicine

Age-wise I don't see a problem, but make sure you will be allowed to practice in the UK when you move back. Some countries have very strict rules. For instance, a doctor cannot work in the US unless they do their residency (sort of like jr. doctor) in the US, and residencies are very hard to get for non-US med school grads.

@Superscientist what are you doing if you don't mind me asking?

I know someone who started training as a doctor in early 40s (but this was over 15 years ago now). I think it is doable in theory - but my big question would be do you have kids, as I suspect the studies / training can be very tough.. (possibly difficult to manage if juggling small kids too).. the person who I know who trained in their 40s was single, no kids. It would be good to get advice on this from someone who has done it before.

@stoufer, yes I have young kids. I guess I wouldn't be able to start until I can get through the IMAT, apply, etc, it will probably take me 2 years, and the first 2 years are then classroom based. So I guess that the pinch point would come when it gets clinical vs school holidays. No idea how long it would be term time only for, but if there is a period of that then that could be a plus in the short term?! My youngest is 18 months now.

@LifeExperience thanks. I think it would be ok but I'll look into it. It's a European country.

Do you have an undergraduate degree in a related field? If you are coming back to the UK in six years there would be the option to do a two-year masters to become a physician associate (but you need to have a bio / healthcare type degree). I don’t know much about it, but seem to remember reading somewhere that as a physician associate the pay is good, and working conditions may be a bit easier than being an actual GP. Lots of demand for them now as well apparently.

@stoufer, no I did a BA degree. But thank you.

Just some things to think about - you don’t mention having any healthcare experience. I think you should do some voluntary or work experience to see if it is for you.
Also even the fittest of people will feel more tired as they approach 60 and it’s hard to imagine from the age you are now. You might very well not feel like working full time beyond 60 so worth thinking about.

If you’re in Italy (which seems to be one place associated with IMAT) I would really want to consider compatibility with the UK system. I remember an episode of Junior Doctors with a guy who had been a GP in northern Italy for 4 years but still struggled with his foundation years in a UK hospital - not sure if it was just him or something specific about the Italian training that made the transfer difficult.
But in general it would be great if you can manage it!

DH did graduate medicine in his 20s and there were a couple of people on his course in their 40s. I don’t think age is an issue if all the other practicalities line up. Do look into practising back in the UK though and check what hurdles there may (or may not) be.

No that’s not the pinch point. The pinch point is the whole career after medical school. Anti-social working hours, 70hr weeks, on-calls, CPD, appraisal, complaints, abuse, professional exams (and the associated costs). Worse at the beginning of your career, and only better at the end if you pick certain specialties.

You haven’t really spoken at all about WHY you want to be a doctor (just that you hate your current job). There really needs to be a huge PULL to go into medicine. You have to love it, have a realistic idea of what the career is like, and be prepared to sacrifice a lot to get there. Do you know what area you’d like to specialise in? Do you know any doctors you can talk to?

I would also check if the qualifications obtained abroad would be accepted in the UK (without further study/exams) as this is not always the case.

In short, there are much nicer and easier ways to have a more fulfilling career/life, especially if you are not constrained by finances. And I’ve said it before, you need to be incredibly bright (not saying you’re not, but academically above most of your peers) and that’s not enough for most people to get into medical school. It’s incredibly competitive (and that never, ever stops).

I work in drug discovery for a small biotech company. My role spans from understanding the mechanisms of disease and the role a medication might play (with the help of my biologist colleagues) to working with medicinal chemists for rationale design of new potential drugs with some basic science techniques in the middle. I am a chemist by training

My partner works in neuroscience based at an institution joined to a medical school although he isn't a medic. He works on understand the mechanistic pathways behind various neurodegenerative diseases as well as little bit of outreach work with patient groups.

There are quite a few other jobs like this on the fringe of medicine depending on what parts of medicine are drawing you to medicine

@Superscientist the patient interaction is what is drawing me. And doing something practical. Research based or something which is rooted in science specifically doesn't appeal quite as much.

@ISpyNoPlumPie - agree with all you say. Lots of doctors in my life to ask. It has been something I have been considering for years, but I always felt it was too late. I do of course need to look into it all properly. For now I'm just wondering if I am now really too old for it to make sense. "In short, there are much nicer and easier ways to have a more fulfilling career/life, especially if you are not constrained by finances." I think you are absolutely right here!!! Need to consider very carefully.

Obviously you've sorted out the practicalities and it is possible but I guess the question now is will it be worth it? What specifically attracts you to medicine? Is it the money, the opportunity to help people, the science/technicality of it? Have you considered one of the very many clinical and non clinical fields within healthcare which hit some or all of the above but have a less lengthy route in? Nursing, pharmacy, therapies, healthcare science, paramedic, management roles to name just a few?

I'm sure you know this but it's not a case that once you complete med school and foundation years (sometimes called internship abroad) that's it, you're straight into consultant/GP, you would still have many years in training ahead, depending on what specialty it could be nearly 10 years before you're a consultant, and those aren't easy years at all. If you're thinking NHS and particularly a competitive specialty you would need to be flexible to move pretty much anywhere in the country and rotate around different hospitals every 6 months (you'll be assigned to a region but the region can cover a very wide area) which can be super disruptive to family life. The hours can be brutal (even if you've chosen GP you still have to do hospital rotations) and the pay poor. I really do think it takes a certain sort of person to love it as a lifestyle, how sure are you that will be you? Have you got work experience in a hospital to know what it's really like? Basically I'm not saying no but it's a huge investment if you're not really sure and there are probably lower risk options out there for you if you know you want to work in healthcare but you're not completely sure about medicine...

Agree with others. Life post qualification is very tough. Irregular shift patterns which make childcare planning a nightmare. Never behind able to commit to attending an event, even with months of advance notice. Training programmes which can rotate you around hospitals hours apart geographically.
It's a young unencumbered person's game.
Only to be done if you can't live without it.

I would also check if the qualifications obtained abroad would be accepted in the UK (without further study/exams) as this is not always the case.

Very much this. Check that your qualification will be accepted for GMC registration.

Would you consider another healthcare role? Physio, Speech Therapy, Pharmacy? then you could shape your own post graduate pathway depending on where you want to specialise and what qualifications you want to do, but avoid the junior doctor carousel.

Well I don’t think too old, that’s not the issue per se. Life stage is important and age might be an issue depending upon your goal/career plans.

Also human: the inner lives of doctors by Caroline Elton is a good book to read. The mental health and wellbeing of doctors (and healthcare professionals as a whole) is much lower than other professions. I think what I’m saying is that retraining as a doctor is not necessarily a solution to life/work ennui.

I’ve had quite a few career wobbles and it has (ultimately) always made more sense for me to find something I like down the path that I have chosen than to start from scratch and find a new path. However, that is very personal and related to my circumstances. I do hear the odd story - on these threads, of people who retrained and found their passion but this isn’t reflected in the workforce as a whole.

Definitely do some digging around, research medical schools, talk to healthcare professionals, and consider other options.

Hi OP, ultimately only you know how much stress/life disruption you can handle. I suggest volunteering in a healthcare setting first. also the post graduate training once you return to the UK is brutal. you will have to work in a hospital setting for at least 2 - 3 years even if doing gp training. most of my Dr friends are gps (I'm not), and I can tell you that life is not easy. they are always working late, lots of patients, everyone (understandably) is frustrated, it's not happy swimming. things have changed a lot.

also if you are training in Italy, I can tell you (having worked with Italian Dr's who moved here at a junior stage) that you will struggle a bit in the beginning. the approach is very different.

even if you are 40 now, you will be 47 before you even enter gp training. and the amount of running around the hospital required may be challenging...

and there are exams, so many exams

@Amara123

”It's a young unencumbered person's game.”

Oh god yes, I really feel this. I could never do it now (20yrs down the line 😱) and I’m not sure if I’d do it again either. That’s sad. It can be a damaging and traumatic career. The pressure is horrendous and the work life balance is awful. Pay v responsibility is a scandal. Many of the positives can be achieved in other ways but the prestige/title is attractive and important to some (not judging ANYONE here).

If you’ve read the recent ‘retrain as a doctor posts’ you’ll have likely seen previous comments both myself and others have made regarding not recommending medicine as a career and the struggle/impossibility of balancing training with family life. I agree with other posters that there are equally (if not more) fulfilling jobs out there without the stress of a medical degree (or more importantly, the stress of medical training).

I can’t comment on the specifics of foundation training where you are but you’ve implied from your post that after qualifying you might be wanting to come back to the UK (presumably for specialty training?). In which case you need to know how your international qualification would work in terms of recognition within the NHS - would you need to do an observership etc or complete the UK foundation programme. A lot of doctors educated abroad come in at FY2 level which to be honest for many is a bit of a disaster for them, colleagues and patients. Working in a completely new healthcare system is a big adjustment and parachuting straight into an SHO role means you’re trying to do that whilst also being the first point of escalation for FY1s. There’s also a lot of geographical variation in medicine so you’ll need to be familiar with UK guidelines etc.

You’ll also need to look at competition ratios for your chosen specialities and what sort of thing you need to do to get a place (specialty training in the UK means you’ll be at the mercy of rotational training). There’s another big bottleneck here in terms of application and it may take a couple of goes to get into a training scheme you want with limited options as to location.

It may be that you don’t want to enter a training programme and locum/go down the CESR but you’ll need to be careful as competition for locum jobs is increasingly fierce (have a look on the doctors forums on Reddit).

Right well I mean this gently, you need to do quite a lot more thinking and research before jumping into medicine because there are loads of options that hit patient interaction and practicality without the 10 year + lead in time and all the practical difficulties of going through specialty training when you already have a life and family. And I know you won't have meant this as glibly as you said it, but of course medicine is heavily rooted in science, med school isn't 5 years of learning to suture and do injections, it's really quite hardcore science, anatomy, biochemistry, physiology etc - perhaps you meant not laboratory based science which is fair but if you're not attracted by the idea of learning very deep theory then medicine isn't really for you.

I'd have a look at the following different career pathways and options as a starting point, they'll all have lots of patient contact, opportunity to make a difference, interesting and challenging in different ways, all practical (some more hands on than others but none primarily office based), none as highly paid as consultants but you can earn a very fair living from all. All will need a degree plus a level of on the job training, many will require shift working as well but if you go down one of these roads you should be up and running in more like 3-5 years rather than 10+... The NHS website has a brilliant quiz/tool which I'd use as well https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/FindYourCareer . If you go through all this and still land on really wanting to be a doctor then great, go for it but at least then it'll be a considered choice.

-Nurse (remember there's loads of different pathways within nursing now other than 'traditional' (which isn't so traditional any more) ward based nursing, there's paediatrics, theatre/scrub nurse, intensive care, mental health nursing, learning disabilities nurse and lots more...

-Pharmacist

-Physiotherapist

-Dietician

-Speech and Language therapist

-Occupational Therapist

-Radiographer (and other 'ographers' e.g. sonographer)

-Advanced practice roles e.g. Operating Department Practitioner, Physician's Associate) - you would probably have to do a general science degree first then a specific masters for these.

You would have a lot more interaction and communication with patients as a physio, occupational therapist, audiologist, speech and language therapist, ophthalmologist, chiropodist etc than as a doctor! Most doctors don’t get to spend very much time with their patients

@maxelly we had the same idea but you were far more articulate expressing it!