My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

AIBU?

Not enough teachers are leaving

216 replies

sharptoothlemonshark · 23/01/2024 17:29

Listening (again) to teacher friends (again) and school children (again).

Anarchy in the classroom, shouting, swearing, children walking out and running around the school, back breaking workload, constant, contradictory criticism, abuse from parents ( and from managers - many of whom are not teachers) no resources, children destroying the resources that do exist, heating / lighting/ IT continually failing, marking too heavy to carry...constant pressure to "achieve" results that are not in any way under your control, low pay, children who want to learn being denied the opportunity to......

Surely these conditions would not exist if teachers didn't collude with keeping them in existence - not all schools are like this. Why don't teachers simply refuse to go along with it? The children that are stuck in schools like this are not being given a fair chance in life, even the really naughty ones are only children, and deserve to be in a system where they can be disciplined and trained, and educated.

I know its hard when you are working 80 hours a week and have no time to think about it, and when you have a mortgage to pay. I've been there. But with hindsight, I should have simply refused to put up with it, long before I did.

More teachers should leave!

OP posts:
Report

Am I being unreasonable?

587 votes. Final results.

POLL
You are being unreasonable
57%
You are NOT being unreasonable
43%
SilkFloss · 26/01/2024 16:56

Good pension, I'll give you (although it's not nearly as good as it was).
But good wage? I don't think so! My son earns more than I do in his mid 20s and only a year into his career.

Report
GrammarTeacher · 26/01/2024 17:34

Graduate management training at Aldi is £50k apparently. Teaching is not a well paid graduate profession. Neither is medicine

Report
threatmatrix · 26/01/2024 18:25

Combattingthemoaners · 26/01/2024 04:01

You come across very judgemental. Not only about state schools and the people working in them but the “feral” children. Your posts have a very condescending tone.

Like I’ve said I worked in both I also attended both so I think I know what I’m talking about. I’ve never been scare in a private school. Is the truth judgemental nowadays?

Report
Yazo · 26/01/2024 19:10

Whatever people say, teaching is quite decent paid compared to all the jobs out there most teachers couldn't walk into the £50k job in Aldi for example and would probably have to start minimum wage. Most people don't earn £50k anyway! So they're just in the pool with the rest of us. A friend left teaching and has taken an admin job after trying for something better paid, she didn't have a lot of the skills needed immediately for office work, it's taken time. I think teachers has some responsibility for their working culture and conditions, it shouldn't be a badge of honour to work as many hours as possible, to have horrible holidays etc. Sometimes no choice but if they can't find a way to be proud of not doing that then it's not going to happen. We need to think about how we can make schools workplaces where teachers aren't working evenings and weekends and work backwards from there. If the government paid twice as much and had twice as many teachers would some of them still put crazy hours in, I really think some would.

Report
ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 26/01/2024 19:17

Yazo · 26/01/2024 19:10

Whatever people say, teaching is quite decent paid compared to all the jobs out there most teachers couldn't walk into the £50k job in Aldi for example and would probably have to start minimum wage. Most people don't earn £50k anyway! So they're just in the pool with the rest of us. A friend left teaching and has taken an admin job after trying for something better paid, she didn't have a lot of the skills needed immediately for office work, it's taken time. I think teachers has some responsibility for their working culture and conditions, it shouldn't be a badge of honour to work as many hours as possible, to have horrible holidays etc. Sometimes no choice but if they can't find a way to be proud of not doing that then it's not going to happen. We need to think about how we can make schools workplaces where teachers aren't working evenings and weekends and work backwards from there. If the government paid twice as much and had twice as many teachers would some of them still put crazy hours in, I really think some would.

You need a degree to do teaching qualification. The Aldi graduate training scene is 50k. So actually most teachers could access it.

What other graduate jobs are you comparing teaching to? Teacher pay is shit for what it is. And l don’t believe anyone with a degree couldn’t do basic admin. Yoh have to be able to do this just to dk a degree. Keep stuff organised, file stuff etc.

Report
sharptoothlemonshark · 26/01/2024 19:23

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 26/01/2024 19:17

You need a degree to do teaching qualification. The Aldi graduate training scene is 50k. So actually most teachers could access it.

What other graduate jobs are you comparing teaching to? Teacher pay is shit for what it is. And l don’t believe anyone with a degree couldn’t do basic admin. Yoh have to be able to do this just to dk a degree. Keep stuff organised, file stuff etc.

I agree most teachers could get other jobs the same rate - I have just watched my children's entire generation walk straight into graduate jobs, mostly earning more than me on their first day, when I have been teaching for decades.

OP posts:
Report
Boomboom22 · 27/01/2024 02:39

How could it be possible for a teacher not to have the it skills for admin? How did they track their students? Plan lessons? I find that very hard to believe. If it is true then no wonder so many spend so many hours.
I worked in admin for years before teaching and it certainly speeds everything up. Being able to use various software tools and VLEs or Google classroom surely means teachers should have way above average ict skills.

Report
Boomboom22 · 27/01/2024 02:41

Don't most grad schemes require you to have graduated within 2 years though? So not open.

I wouldn't want anything without authority though so would have to be senior ish to leave. Not that I want to.

Report
Elendel · 27/01/2024 06:23

It's probably been mentioned, but what teacher outside of London earns 50K?

I'm on leadership pay and don't earn that much; my colleagues average 30K at best.

Teacher pay is good compared to the median across all jobs, perhaps, but not when actual hours worked are factored in.

Report
Winterstormm · 27/01/2024 07:04

Devonshiregal · 23/01/2024 21:36

Yes precisely. And what easier ways? You wanna work in a bar and work every holiday, weekend, Christmas, NYE? Nights and early mornings? Have people treat you like shit? Threaten to bottle you? Spit at you? Click their fingers at you?

or maybe retail? Again where you get spoken down to all day by spoiled adults and have ridiculous management to deal with?

or maybe just a “cushy” office job - except you’re pay will be shit and you have no autonomy or creativity?

it’s not just teachers who have it shit you know.

Most jobs pay you for overtime and you don't take work home with you. You can also take time off work during term time. These things don't apply to teachers.

Report
VashtaNerada · 27/01/2024 07:10

I had well-paid leadership roles before becoming a teacher. Not only is teaching the only role I ever had that required a degree, I also needed to complete Maths and English tests, an essay, an observed lesson and a panel interview to get onto the course. The course itself and then my teaching career has by far been the most challenging thing I’ve ever done - intellectually, emotionally and physically. Teachers are incredible and could walk into so many jobs and thrive. Unfortunately, not all employers (or indeed teachers themselves) realise that. I suspect that one of the reasons the profession is looked down upon by society is because it’s still mainly women who do the job (in primary at least).

Report
noblegiraffe · 27/01/2024 07:27

Boomboom22 · 27/01/2024 02:41

Don't most grad schemes require you to have graduated within 2 years though? So not open.

I wouldn't want anything without authority though so would have to be senior ish to leave. Not that I want to.

I just looked through the Aldi grad scheme pack and nothing in it says anything about a timeline of when you graduated.

Report
tttigress · 27/01/2024 07:34

Teachers go on strike over pay (which I don't think is that bad)

But never go on strike over pupil behaviour (which is terrible)

I don't understand it. The thing the should be strike over is pupil behaviour/ work conditions

Report
spanieleyes · 27/01/2024 07:38

Teachers are only allowed to strike over pay and conditions- and even that is now under attack!

Report
noblegiraffe · 27/01/2024 07:45

tttigress · 27/01/2024 07:34

Teachers go on strike over pay (which I don't think is that bad)

But never go on strike over pupil behaviour (which is terrible)

I don't understand it. The thing the should be strike over is pupil behaviour/ work conditions

They do, a lot.

e.g. https://schoolsweek.co.uk/oasis-sheppey-teachers-striking-pupil-assaults-zero-tolerance-exclusions/

But teachers can't have a national strike over pupil behaviour because they can only strike nationally about things that affect all teachers.

So strikes about behaviour are school-based only.

Striking teachers demand ‘zero-tolerance’ 10-day exclusions

Union reports four physical assaults in the last two weeks alone at troubled Oasis Isle of Sheppey

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/oasis-sheppey-teachers-striking-pupil-assaults-zero-tolerance-exclusions/

Report
Winterday1991 · 27/01/2024 07:58

Thing is teachers complain about the pay, but it can't be that bad if they can't find another job in another industry to match.

Report
Devonshiregal · 27/01/2024 08:12

Winterstormm · 27/01/2024 07:04

Most jobs pay you for overtime and you don't take work home with you. You can also take time off work during term time. These things don't apply to teachers.

I just don’t get where people are getting this. As if teaching is just the worst job in the whole wide world and everyone else has it easy. It’s so self indulgent. Most jobs don’t get as much holiday, let’s start there. Many jobs you do take work home. Many jobs you work until 10pm often. Or away from home for weeks at a time. Or have to navigate hideous management situations. Or do shift work. Or cover sick staff with mental health problems who just don’t turn up for work so the responsible falls to you. Or have to deal with hideous life and death situations, get attacked by members of the public and are expected to just get on with it, such as a paramedic. Like the list goes on. Why does it make you feel like the shitness in your job is lessened if other people also have shit jobs? It’s so weird

Report
GrammarTeacher · 27/01/2024 08:24

tttigress · 27/01/2024 07:34

Teachers go on strike over pay (which I don't think is that bad)

But never go on strike over pupil behaviour (which is terrible)

I don't understand it. The thing the should be strike over is pupil behaviour/ work conditions

Pupil behaviour (or rather SLT response to it) is a working conditions and teachers DO go on strike over it. However, it's a local issue (not all schools) and therefore these strikes don't tend to make so many waves in the press I believe there are some teachers striking over pupil behaviour right now.

Report
GrammarTeacher · 27/01/2024 08:28

Devonshiregal · 27/01/2024 08:12

I just don’t get where people are getting this. As if teaching is just the worst job in the whole wide world and everyone else has it easy. It’s so self indulgent. Most jobs don’t get as much holiday, let’s start there. Many jobs you do take work home. Many jobs you work until 10pm often. Or away from home for weeks at a time. Or have to navigate hideous management situations. Or do shift work. Or cover sick staff with mental health problems who just don’t turn up for work so the responsible falls to you. Or have to deal with hideous life and death situations, get attacked by members of the public and are expected to just get on with it, such as a paramedic. Like the list goes on. Why does it make you feel like the shitness in your job is lessened if other people also have shit jobs? It’s so weird

I don't say that teaching is worse than all other jobs, but as it happens my husband (a policeman) thinks that many of my working conditions are worse. Not all though. Different jobs have different issues. Teachers on here don't say their job is worse than other people's. Merely it's not as cushy as some people insist it is. If it was there wouldn't be a recruitment crisis

Report
Winterstormm · 27/01/2024 08:34

@Devonshiregal if you think teachers have it easy then why don't you do a PGCE? From the comments you've made, it seems like you won't mind working 7am - 7pm every weekday, either planning or marking or going to meetings or doing parents' evenings (not paid overtime). You also seem to think working weekends and half term breaks (again, not paid) and not being able to take time off during term time are ok. You should join the profession because it'll be so easy for you...

Report
AllProperTeaIsTheft · 27/01/2024 08:39

I just don’t get where people are getting this. As if teaching is just the worst job in the whole wide world and everyone else has it easy. It’s so self indulgent.

It's a total and utter lie that teachers claim or even imply that teaching is the worst job in the whole wide world, or that everyone else has it easy. Of course that isn't true. We would literally all leave if that were the case.

What teachers almost always do is say that they enjoy the actual teaching bit, then they list the many, many things about schools, Ofsted, behaviour, workload etc that make it stressful and almost impossible to do the job properly. Pretty much all of the things teachers complain about are things which don't just piss off teachers, they are also either directly or indirectly detrimental to kids' education.

Scoffing at what teachers are complaining about, and thereby ignoring the reasons for the massive recruitment and retention crisis, does a massive disservice to children.

Report
Meadowfinch · 27/01/2024 08:44

My dsis was a teacher for 35 years. She said managing the dcs was ok, the real issues were

  • the parents (violent, abusive, unsupportive, inept or just absent)
  • the Dept for Education constantly implementing unnecessary change
  • occasionally the senior mgt team, for sheer spinelessness.



She stayed until retirement, moved to a rural village and now volunteers one day a week in the local primary, plus acts as supply when any teacher is absent.
Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

sharptoothlemonshark · 27/01/2024 08:55

tttigress · 27/01/2024 07:34

Teachers go on strike over pay (which I don't think is that bad)

But never go on strike over pupil behaviour (which is terrible)

I don't understand it. The thing the should be strike over is pupil behaviour/ work conditions

Firstly the pay is around 60-80% of what my graduate children are walking into on their first day of work

Striking over pay and conditions, is often actually striking over behaviour.

thirdly striking over behaviour does happen, I have done it, although technically illegal

OP posts:
Report
ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 27/01/2024 09:02

But never go on strike over pupil behaviour (which is terrible)

I don't understand it. The thing the should be strike over is pupil behaviour/ work conditions


How uninformed can you be?

The strikes were about conditions/behaviour. There government have underfunded education for so long that conditions and behaviour have become unmanageable. They were striking on behalf of your dc.

Report
noblegiraffe · 27/01/2024 09:08

thirdly striking over behaviour does happen, I have done it, although technically illegal

It's not illegal for teachers of a school to strike over behaviour at that school.

It would not be allowed for me to go on strike over behaviour at your school.

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.