To expect my child to be taught by a teacher with a degree in that subject?

[northlundunmum]

My child is in year 8 and in their school
has “Humanities” which is history and geography combined rather than taught separately- not great in my view but ok. However, this year they are being taught by a music teacher. No doubt a very talented musician but according to my child they admit not being very good at teaching history or geography.

I do understand there are teacher shortages and sometimes some teachers will have to cover for others but this seems to be a permanent arrangement at least for this year.

Does anybody know what the DfE / Ofsted rules / guidance are on this? I understand you have to have a degree in a subject in order to train to teach it at secondary level (or at least used to) - does that not extend to actually teaching the subject in school?

Grateful for advice from anyone who knows the law / regulations here as want to approach the school about it and want to be clear what’s reasonable to expect and what they should in fact be doing according to govt policy.

Thank you!

You think that geography as a subject is broader than combining the entire history of the world, all textile and fibre arts, the entire canon of music and visual arts and all extinct and extant human languages? (Obviously I am not claiming expertise in all these, only interest).

No, you claimed “passion” for them. You also stated that you actually can only speak a few languages; and can’t really perform music or create art.

Let me guess; you think that geography is just naming places on maps; don’t you?

We can only claim to be passionate about massive topics if we have mastered them fully? Is it not possible to be passionate about an art form as a consumer rather than a practitioner? Do you therefore claim to have full mastery of the entire field of geography in all its forms, physical and human, as a science and as a humanity? You should probably be on the telly if so.

I am not sure what competition you think you are in but it seems very important to you that you win it.

It is possible to be “passionate” about anything; I guess. However, we were speaking in terms of using your passion to teach others. I am pretty interested in music, in that I attend live music shows several times a month and listen to music for hours each day at home. However; this would not give me adequate mastery to teach it. I also wouldn’t say it was a “passion” since I know little about it; I just enjoy it! In no way could I teach others. I’d suggest your stance on music may be similar to mine?

Obviously I have not “mastered” geography - and I could not successfully teach most areas of geography. Which is exactly my point - if I can’t do it; as someone with a first class honours with distinction in the discipline; then it would be very surprising if a music teacher who isn’t even interested enough to choose it as their degree was able to.

Now obviously I know the school curriculum inside out. But I teach geography up to advanced higher level; which is the equivalent of first year of university.

Point in hand; I think your degree should be related to the subject you teach, rather than something you learned about when you were 16.

Im not even saying it has to be the exact same; it doesn’t need to be the exact same in Scotland either. For example; you can probably teach maths with an economics degree. I can actually teach biology too; kind of by accident as I did part of a biochemistry degree before my geography degree; and then there were enough credits in the rest of my geography degree (like marine ecosystems). However; I’d be pretty shit at it as I have no passion in it.

It is possible to be “passionate” about anything; I guess. However, we were speaking in terms of using your passion to teach others.

Were we? You gave me a definition of ‘passion’ as ‘The definition of passion (in reference to hobbies and interests) is “feeling so excited by a hobby or interest that you devote hours of your free time to it”’. I responded within the terms of your definition and I think I was very clear that I claim no expertise to be able to teach the domains that I mentioned.

^
Does anybody know what the DfE / Ofsted rules / guidance are on this? I understand you have to have a degree in a subject in order to train to teach it at secondary level (or at least used to) - does that not extend to actually teaching the subject in school?^

If it's an academy then the teachers don't need to be qualified at all!

Well, yes. Given that the whole context of this post is about whether teachers should have a degree which is relevant to the subject they teach. Additionally; my earlier post stated that I would want my child to be taught by someone with a passion for the subject they are teaching, rather than something that they just fall into, and studying something at the age of 16 does not signify a “passion”

Thank you for that clarification.

Teaching involves skills that are not subject specific. Teachers have a degree in education.

You need a degree to show that you're educated to a certain level. It is also needed for teaching A level in a subject so that again you have studied further than your students in the subject.

So you studied subjects you weren't passionate about. What if someone has a degree in a subject but isn't passionate about it - they just did it to get a qualification? Does that mean they shouldn't teach it either?

And you don't need to have a degree in the subject to train in it either. If you have a totally unrelated degree but say, maths A-level, you can do a subject knowledge enhancement course and train to be a maths teacher.

Hmm... I don't know the rules around teaching but I would value experience over qualifications personally. Both are good but I would rather be taught something by someone who had years of experience teaching the subject and no degree, than someone with a degree and no experience.

I work in a law firm, I don't have a law degree or even a degree at all, and I manage and train a team of paralegals to do their job who are nearly qualified solicitors and barristers. It's mental and a lot of people don't like it but it happens

But in your case I wouldn't feel entirely happy to be honest if the teacher is saying what they're saying as they don't sound entirely comfortable teaching it!

Here in Scotland you apply for a PGDE in a specific subject - so I would have only been able to apply to do a PGDE in Geography. I can’t just do a PGDE and then decide on my subject later, if that makes sense. I also can’t side-step into a different subject I am not qualified to teach without doing a whole year of training in that subject (IE achieve NQT again in my second subject) - and I can only do that in a subject that I have enough university credits in. If I wanted to teach; say chemistry; I’d need to look at my academic transcript; see how many relevant credits I had; and then top them up.

In Scotland; you would not pass interview if you couldn’t demonstrate a passion for the subject you intend to teach. Now obviously it isn’t perfect as people can fake it; but all the teachers I spend time with do genuinely love the subject they teach. None of them ended up there by circumstance.

It’s such an alien concept to me tbh; and I do think it’s part of the reason that England is having such a retention crisis. I wouldn’t be happy if I was shoehorned into teaching maths, computing or music.

I completely agree with you @0rangeCrush about passion for the subject. Haven't you found though in your own subject a move toward people being asked to teach other things, certainly at BGE level? Say a combined course in your department? I see that in my dc's schools.

@0rangeCrush agreed. I want DD to be taught by subject specialists who have a real passion for their subjects, not someone who reads through the slides the day before a lesson. I'm not knocking teachers, I firmly blame the government. Don't our kids deserve to be taught by people who love the subjects they are teaching and who can engage and enthuse their pupils?

Yes!

I have spoken up against it many times. I have flat-out told them I’ll quit if they move to single teacher delivery. Not doing it.

A bit patronising…

Do tell.

My friend teaches geography in a very well known private school in London. She hasn't even for a degree! She started working there 4 years ago as a TA and then the geography teacher left a year later. She was asked to cover the classes whilst they were recruiting - they never did recruit and she's still 'covering' the classes permanently 🤷‍♀️

A teacher - hands down!! I am a primary teacher (I did the old 4 year BEd in 1990!) I can honestly say (no hyperbole here) that I'd be confident walking into any secondary classroom, at any level or subject, and as long as the lesson had been left for me by the teacher, I would have no problem delivering it and dealing with all the very many nuances of teaching.

I have taught all primary ages from nursery to Year 6, so not a secondary subject specialist, but I'm 30 years in the job, a deputy head and have seen more changes in education than I can shake a stick at. Teaching is bloody hard work - and yes, there's a recruitment crisis and we are crying out for keen and talented new colleagues, but without the relevant skill set to actually understand the 'how' you'd be crucified on day one. If you really want to do it, make an appointment with your local high school and ask if you can have a look around. Or better still...stand outside the local comp at home time and just watch them as they leave/get on the busses! 😨 Then, if you're still keen, get yourself on Train To Be A Teacher and go from there 👍

Not trying to put you off...but you need to understand the reality of the job.

https://getintoteaching.education.gov.uk/mailinglist/signup/name?gadsource=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqd2Y4Ir9gwMVeZNQBh1fWwRpEAAYASAAEgKLRvDD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

My daughter studied biomedical science at university, and teaches chemistry and biology at a secondary school. So a related subject, but not a degree in what she actually teaches. I should think that any teacher can cover a year 8 subject as long as the have access to the course work. But obviously not ideal.

Apologies if this has been mentioned before but there's a Facebook group called Exit the Classroom and Thrive which started about two years ago and currently has 151k members. Not all of these people are still teachers but it's still a staggering number. The group has caught the attention of the DfE and some media outlets. If you really want an insight into why your DC's school has a shortage of teachers, I'd join and have a read.
Parents should be furious at the impact this current Government has had the state of schools and the teaching profession.

Also, watch the recent Panorama episode on the condition of school buildings- it's really sobering. I don't think the schools featured are exceptional as our school was built in the 1950s and is in a state. We're often cold in the winter and water regularly gets in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001vnjc/panorama-britains-crumbling-schools

Your children are being failed and you should be up in arms.

I can honestly say (no hyperbole here) that I'd be confident walking into any secondary classroom, at any level or subject, and as long as the lesson had been left for me by the teacher, I would have no problem delivering it and dealing with all the very many nuances of teaching.

What? You think you could deliver my A-level further maths lessons because I left you a Dr Frost PowerPoint?

And then be able to get the pupils go and complete air quality sampling, conduct a river study, complete a ricepot, run stats tests, and write a report of their findings.

All from a PowerPoint which you have what … maybe an hour to read over?

I used to teach textiles.A level included incredibly complex structural items. Complex science about how fibres performed in specific ways, and really detailed production lessons were always good for a laugh. Loads of technical language that’s never heard on a day to day basis.

Could you teach that? Making sure the finish on everything was perfect?