To expect my child to be taught by a teacher with a degree in that subject?

[northlundunmum]

My child is in year 8 and in their school
has “Humanities” which is history and geography combined rather than taught separately- not great in my view but ok. However, this year they are being taught by a music teacher. No doubt a very talented musician but according to my child they admit not being very good at teaching history or geography.

I do understand there are teacher shortages and sometimes some teachers will have to cover for others but this seems to be a permanent arrangement at least for this year.

Does anybody know what the DfE / Ofsted rules / guidance are on this? I understand you have to have a degree in a subject in order to train to teach it at secondary level (or at least used to) - does that not extend to actually teaching the subject in school?

Grateful for advice from anyone who knows the law / regulations here as want to approach the school about it and want to be clear what’s reasonable to expect and what they should in fact be doing according to govt policy.

Thank you!

Head teachers, even in maintained schools, can and do appoint people without QTS to teach classes - and not just to cover.

Mmm. I'm thinking that telling teachers to stop moaning and leave if they don't like it hasn't gone very well. We did try and tell people this was going to happen 🤷‍♀️.
Until conditions and pay improve this is unfortunately only going to get worse. I'm just hanging in there for a few years until I retire.

You'll probably find a lot of teachers aren't qualified at all, unqualified teachers are a lot cheaper. Qualified teachers have to have a degree, but once qualified can teach any subject

Hope this helps https://getintoteaching.education.gov.uk/is-teaching-right-for-me/qualifications-you-need-to-teach

I have 40+ years teaching experience.
Non-specialists (ie: no qualifications in a particular subject beyond GCSE/O level) are often asked to help out with Yrs 7 and 8 in subjects like History or RE.
It is rare for them to be asked to teach a GCSE class. Specialists are used first for years 9-11.
Schools have had to muddle along like this for years and it usually works out satisfactorily.
A decent school will ensure that a non-specialist will get help and support from the HOD or a teacher experienced in the subject; and the QTS will transfer their skills.
You really don’t need a degree to teach Henry VIII and his 6 wives to Year 7 🙂.

It's always been like this. My high school maths teacher had a degree in Chemistry.

I've taught Health and Social care for years, my degree is Deaf Studies with Computing, my PGCE is computer science but in a previous life I was a clinical physiologist.

Doing supply I mainly did HSC but I have taught maths (currently doing an OU maths degree) photography (used to develop my own photos as a teen) Sociology (I have an AS). HSC I taught to a high level but the other subjects were year 7-9.

Music is my supply nemesis. Stick me in a room with a bunch of kids and a bunch of instruments and look at the work that has been left for me - the kids have to design a poster. But they want to play instruments, I don't even know how to hold most instruments let alone play one.

You really don't. My neighbour just had very positive comments from Ofsted about her teaching of maths. Her degree was in Geography. She has maths A level. You don't need more than A level to teach KS3 or KS4.

My child is HoD in a comprehensive school. Their subject is arts based and, initially they had 5 'free periods' a fortnight to do HoD stuff (to include booking UK and EU tours, cultural visits, staff appraisals and 121 lessons). This has now dwindled to 1 a week (sometimes) and they now teach Maths and French to yr8 (a language they have never studied). I feel sorry for the teachers and the pupils.

The op just sounds utterly insufferable

She really does not. Have you read all of her posts? She sounds like a parent who gives a shit about her child’s education and who has hitherto had the good fortune to be protected from the realities of the staffing crisis. Her updates indicate that she has listened to the responses given. What more do you want?

Massive shortage of teachers I’m afraid so it’s happening across the board. Not the school nor teachers fault, take this up with the government. My DC’s school have done the same, drama teacher is also teaching maths and an art teacher is also teaching history this year. Nothing they can do, there simply aren’t enough teachers to go around.

The government don’t value education at all, well unless it’s STEM. This extends to university level. My colleagues and I have been offered ‘voluntary redundancy’ for the past 5 years. They’re merging history and English to save money so they’re subsequently cutting both departments. Last summer we lost 6 esteemed colleagues, very sad. I’m not sure how long it will be until I’m facing the chop so DH and I are looking at emigrating.

stick me in a room with a bunch of kids and a bunch of instruments and look at the work that has been left for me - the kids have to design a poster

one very real issue some kids face is a day full of supply teachers and a day full of poster designing.

I used to be an art/Dt teacher. This used to drive me fucking mental.

’Design a poster about the murder of Thomas a Beckett’

🤮.

A geography teacher will (most likely) have a decent understanding of maths, as often geography degrees require you to study statistics.

A maths degree is unlikely to cover something like soil profiling.

And someone with Geography A level will have more than enough knowledge to teach geography GCSE.

When I read stuff like this I'm so glad I work in (and my children are educated in) Scotland, where university credits are expected in a subject for exam level teaching.
I got an A-level in Maths back in the 80s, would you think it was ok for me to teach that now?

They absolutely will not.

I want my kid taught by someone who is passionate enough to study the subject at university, for starters. I don’t want someone to teach my kid who hasn’t even learned within the subject themselves beyond high school level.

You also need a deeper knowledge of something to be able to explain it effectively.

It’s just so alien to anyone outside England that this would even be a possibility.

Pay teachers properly and then you can get people who actually like the subject to teach it. Wild.

Apparently I can now teach Maths, English, Chemistry, Biology, Geography, Psychology, and Home Economics. Oh, and I think I technically could teach computing too - I got a D for that.

Haha that is genuinely terrifying. Poor children. I hate most of those subjects, with the exception of maybe English and biology - I’m most certainly not good enough to teach them though; but apparently if I move to England I can.

Apart from my PGCE in Secondary English, my highest qualification in the subject is two A grades at A level. I’ve been teaching English in state secondary schools for over 15 years now - GCSE and A Level - and students regularly get the highest grades.

I wouldn’t do it if I felt I wasn’t good at it. I don’t feel students are being let down by having me as their teacher in any way and it has never been mentioned by any HoD I’ve ever had.

Are you only passionate about the subject you did a degree in? I have other subjects I'm also very interested in and would be happy to teach.

Having an A level is deeper knowledge than GCSE!

Yep, I’m only passionate about the subject I did a degree in. I enjoyed English, biology and psychology too.
The others I did merely to get the qualifications I needed to do the course I wanted to do.
This is the case for many, many kids. They have to pick x amount of subjects; they probably choose their favourite subject(s); a few they like; and then the rest are whatever ones they hate the least. It would be very unusual for someone to be “passionate” about multiple of their school subjects.
Let’s not pretend that anything taught in school is anything other than basic knowledge. It’s not until uni that you really scratch the surface. Often (in geography in Scotland anyway) the difficulty is the exact same at N5 as it is at Higher; there is just far more of it.
If you don’t need a degree in the relevant subject; why do you need a degree at all?

Yep, I’m only passionate about the subject I did a degree in.

That’s a shame.

No it isn’t.

I have lots of other interests and passions; just not things that I studied at school.

The definition of passion (in reference to hobbies and interests) is “feeling so excited by a hobby or interest that you devote hours of your free time to it” - how many subjects which you studied at school are you “passionate” about?

Probably about four or five, in addition to my specialism in English language and literature.

Languages - I speak a couple and make sure they don’t go rusty
Textiles
History
Music and art - albeit only as an enthusiastic consumer rather than as a practitioner!

There is quite a lot of crossover between those subjects though - geography as a subject is probably broader than all of those interests combined.