To expect my child to be taught by a teacher with a degree in that subject?

[northlundunmum]

My child is in year 8 and in their school
has “Humanities” which is history and geography combined rather than taught separately- not great in my view but ok. However, this year they are being taught by a music teacher. No doubt a very talented musician but according to my child they admit not being very good at teaching history or geography.

I do understand there are teacher shortages and sometimes some teachers will have to cover for others but this seems to be a permanent arrangement at least for this year.

Does anybody know what the DfE / Ofsted rules / guidance are on this? I understand you have to have a degree in a subject in order to train to teach it at secondary level (or at least used to) - does that not extend to actually teaching the subject in school?

Grateful for advice from anyone who knows the law / regulations here as want to approach the school about it and want to be clear what’s reasonable to expect and what they should in fact be doing according to govt policy.

Thank you!

That’s actually horrific. Jesus.

This pretty much hits the nail on the head sadly.

This! I don't know why people think someone needs a degree in a subject to teach it to year 8 level.

It takes more than basic knowledge to teach GCSE. You need a degree in GCSE level teaching.

Or people just refuse to believe it’s true for some reason 🤷🏻‍♀️ it’s bizarre but you give people facts based on real life experience and they just think you’re a bit mad… Then complain about the school and teachers, I don’t get it!

So..... For some years you had to have a degree, of some sort, to get into teaching.

Whether you got onto a PGCE course with ones particular degree was up to the PGCE provider. Whether they thought your degree subject was acceptable for the subject (or age if junior/infant training) you were aiming to teach.

I think degrees are required for the various other routes into teaching - teach first etc etc.

There was a scheme to get non-degree ex-soldiers into teaching but whilst it collected some publicity it produced very very few teachers.

In the mid/late 70s it was still possible to get into a teacher training college with just O levels and qualify to teach. A 3 year course with a Certificate of Education at the end. Most will have retired by now but there will still be a few out there.

So the above is about QTS. Actually being qualified to teach.

So getting a job.............

In a state school (Local authority) you have to be a qualified teacher to teach. Whether they accept your degree for the subject you aim to teach is up to them. This may be stated in the advert/job description or decided on the day after weighing up all the interviewees.

In an independant, academy, free school - they can appoint anyone they like QTS or not.

Too many non-QTS 'teachers' in an academy or free school and results/teaching/behaviour are questionable then OFSTED may comment. But only after an inspection.

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To the writer on about p8 who was roped into teach Electronics. Sorry if it was my lessons, my school after my retirement.

I wasn't directly replaced - no applicants with my/this specialism.

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To those who are banging on about the need for higher degrees, Masters, PHD etc

My DW was involved in training prospective IT teachers. All with post grad qualifications in the subject.

Fortunately for your children many did not either get onto the course or finish it.

A real demonstration that a good degree in the subject does not necessarily equal good teaching in that subject.

This is so true. Apart from teaching now being an extremely unattractive profession, they have made it so complex for non-box tickers like me (didn't finish my degree) that they are shooting themselves in the foot. They need to look at individual candidates on their own merits and concentrate on whether the applicant can actually manage a classroom or be trained to do so. I've worked in MFL for 20 years, have CELTA and have taught kids and EFL abroad but can't get onto an SKE course or see any financially viable way into the profession so I've ruled it out.

QTS is only available to graduates with a minimum of a bachelors degree. This has not changed. Teach First is only open to graduates (although they have significantly watered down their entry requirements). The original Troops into Teachers was a version of the Registered Teacher Programme, which enables non-graduates with an HND or foundation degree to study for a bachelors with QTS. It was replaced with a bursary for veterans to study a degree in a shortage subject with QTS but had very low take-up.

This may be stated in the advert/job description or decided on the day after weighing up all the interviewees.

I'm laughing at the concept of multiple interviewees to weigh up on the basis of their degree subject. Often we get none.

My son just did an Economics GCSE without ever having an Economics teacher (supply / cover for two years). This is in a school ranked in the top 10 secondary schools in the country.

They just can't recruit teachers as there's not enough in the profession. Many of their other subject classes were just merged classes sat in the school hall being 'supervised'.

We're in an absolute education crisis, I'm so glad both my kids will soon have aged out of the system.

This used to happen in the 90s. I was taught geography by a mulleted PE teacher who just read out bits of a textbook and then handed out worksheets.

I find geography interesting as an adult but didn't choose it for GCSE as the lessons were so dull. I remember spending several weeks learning about a shopping centre in the Midlands.

Ha Ha, the bit about a shopping centre reminds me of spending weeks learning about the different woollens produced in the towns and valleys of the West Riding.

Head to Afreshhope........

Thinks....... He's got a car.

Says "If we get you some spanners you can teach motor vehicle engineering in one if the PE stores under the school."

Later on that year.
"I hear your Dad is a priest - I've put you down to teach RE once a week."

These were in the 80s. Shortages are nothing new - just a lot worse. I quite enjoyed CSE MVE, less so RE.

I'd expect my child to be taught by... a teacher!

For one A-level subject, started yr13 with a trainee and a thinking of becoming a teacher. Both 'not a teachers' swiftly left. They didn't even have cover for most of their lessons and the suggested work was irrelevant/inadequate so they just ended up teaching themselves for a term.

I mean I guess children are being encouraged to be more independent, resourceful and self sufficient from a younger age and not rely on others. At least today there is the internet and YouTube and tutors… I think private tutors are probably doing quite well out of the crisis…

Whenever anyone mentions kids learning from YouTube I think of lockdown.

Kids learning from YouTube, yes.
Kid learning what you want them to learn from YouTube, no.

I would be happy for someone with knowledge of a subject without a degree in it but with a degree in teaching and understanding how children learn and experience in managing a classroom, to teach my child.
I think the move for academies to have people without a teaching degree is much more worrying.

My son was taught computer science A level by an accounts teacher.
We only found out after the entire class failed the AS level, the college was shamed in to admitting it.

If I was in that position again I'd complain complain complain!!

A good teacher should be able to teach just about anything so I shouldn’t worry about it in year 8. From Y9 though I would expect specialist teachers to be teaching GCSE and A level. It would worry me that the teacher is expressing lack of self confidence in front of the children. Never a good thing to do.

It is true that, as @2024afreshhope says, it was theoretically still possible to train for a three-year teacher training certificate on the strength of "O"-levels alone, back in the late 60's/early 70!s but in practice this was not really an option for a student coming straight from school with nothing else to offer.
If they were studying for "A"-levels, as I was, their school would be contacted for predicted grades, in the same way as somebody applying for university, who would get a conditional offer.
I could have gone to university at 18 and gained a degree (did that later part-time) but I was attracted to a course where I could spend three years addressing aspects of education, as mentioned by @sunshinemode: child development, history of education etc., as well as the practicalities of delivering core subjects and developing personal subject expertise.
The bar was set apparently lower to enable colleges to take on older candidates with something else to offer, such as time served in the police or armed forces; one of my colleagues early in my career had served formerly as a WPC.

Pgce entry requirement for secondary

GCSE grade 4, or standard equivalent, in English and maths (qualifications in key and functional skills at level 2 are not equivalent to GCSEs in breadth of content)
a first degree (minimum 2:2) from a UK higher education institution or a recognised equivalent qualification. In exceptional cases if you do not have a 2:2 but are able to demonstrate suitable significant experience and/or further study you may be considered for the course
ability to clearly demonstrate suitable subject level ability in the specialist subject area. This may be evidenced through suitable A level or Level 3 qualifications and the completion of a subject knowledge enhancement course or through the first-degree subject area (a transcript may be requested) or through work experience relating to the subject
ability to demonstrate capacity to meet the Teachers’ Standards

I'd rather have the music teacher covering Humanities than a History or Geography teacher covering Music!

Why?

My colleague - a history teacher - plays piano to a high level (can’t remember exactly but I think maybe 6 or 7?) and also plays guitar and sings in a band. He does private tuition for singing too.

My friend - a music teacher - can’t read a map, nevermind teach anyone else to.

Why would you assume it was easier to teach geographical skills if you were a music teacher than to teach guitar/piano skills if you were a geography teacher?

I play an instrument to grade 8 and have lots of vocal and choral experience but would be no good at all teaching music.

However, with my BA in a humanities subject, I've had no difficulty teaching other humanities at KS3 (not always enjoyed it much but definitely been able to do it competently).

I really admire classroom music teachers. It's a tough gig especially with all the extra curricular expectations.

It is really bad but if someone has a degree in computer science and enjoys computer science they are likely to find a job outside of teaching as the job market is very good for those kind of graduates, it’s hard for teaching to compare in all honesty… Complain to the school but they can only work with what they’ve got and with what they’re able to get.

I suppose the school should have been upfront about their situation and why the situation was like that. Not sure how parents would have responded though, I always sense people just don’t think things are that bad until it’s too late for some reason…