To think that preparing for war with Russia is total madness?

[Newbutoldfather]

General Patrick Sanders, our top general, warns troops ‘must be prepared to fight Russia in the battlefield’.

There is increasing acceptance of the idea that we could somehow fight a limited war with Russia. I just don’t believe this.

Leaving aside that our military consists of a toy battleship and an old man with a wooden gun (only slight hyperbole), have people wished nukes away?

I am very curious as to what this war would look like. Are they envisaging that there would be a limited battlefield and a list of allowed weapons and that the loser would shake hands and walk away?

I think we are perilously close to the total annihilation of Homo sapiens (which would happen in a nuclear war). We, meaning the west and, especially, the increasingly jingoistic UK, need to dial back the rhetoric and look for a way to find peace, even if we have to compromise on our principles.

Interested in what people think and whether people do think that AIBU.

I think you don't understand the physiology of an aggressor.
Ask for peace talks and they'll think you're weak and will feel emboldened to attack.
Stand tall, look them in the eye and tell them to have a go if they think they're hard enough... they'll not feel so confident and not attack.

And for all of those thinking we are reliving the 1940s, what we old Germany have done when the tanks crossed their border in 1945 if Hitler had a strategic nuclear deterrent?

I think that given the state of the rest of Russia’s arms I have little belief that their nuclear weapons are sound. A lot of it is political posturing, but the reality is that nobody knows, and that is why we should always be prepared.

My only concern would be that when trump is re-elected to the whitehouse later this year he will go into league with Russia.

Putin has enough weapons stock piled to be a threat but he also knows NATO have enough weapons to wipe Russia off the planet. He wants power. What would he gain by risking that?

Letting Russia have Ukraine. In the hope they do not then go for another neighbouring country. If people were honest they would prefer this option to getting pulled in to a war…I know I would

You sound very dramatic and if I didn’t know that you are spot on, I’d think you were a conspiracy nut. Sadly you are right.

Zelensky's been played as a patsy, for sure. I hope there's a really thorough examination of what he's been up to once it all settles down, massive great oligarch that he is.

No one wants to use nuclear weapons though. There's been a few times - Suez, Cuban Missile, Korean Airline - when it's been seriously on the cards, way more than now, including in 1983 incompetent geriatrics at either end, but even then it didn't happen because nobody actually wants it, not really. They have to allude to it though, otherwise what's the point in having all the bloody kit.

But why on earth would Russia NOT go for another country, having learnt it's a strategy that works? They'd have nothing to lose!

I think a limited war might be a good plan , given Russia's armed forces are not up to much either.

Better again , Vladimir and Rishi could agree to have ' a square go' in a pub car park? No knives mind . Or nukes.
Or as Tom Lehrer put it -

We'll all go together when we go
Fused with an incandescent glow

Russia's not arsed about other countries. They weren't particularly arsed about Ukraine, barring Donbas (which they were already in) until zelensky & co started playing silly devils.

Russia might, but Ukraine is after all a historical part of greater Russia. A country that is not in that category, Russia knows we would defend, but in any case they might not want to invade it. The dictator wants to reunite Russia. Not saying it’s right but that is his dream.

@Finbrek ,

Clearly no one wants nuclear Armageddon. If it happens, it will be via brinkmanship gone wrong, or a misinterpretation of missile readiness.

We had a spy during the Cuban missile crisis; I hope we do now.

Well they are not getting their arses kicked in Ukraine are they? in fact should Trump win, Russia may very well take all or part of Ukraine in 2025, possibly earlier if you guys don't sort out the 60bn in aid the republicans are holding up.

& your version of European History is somewhat incorrect, Russia went into Hungary and Czechoslovakia during the cold war, blockaded Berlin too.

Russia would have gone into Ukraine regardless of NATOs conventional strength, as they knew very well NATO wouldn't intervene, we even told them so.

I think Russia should be allowed to win in Ukraine. Let the dictator die off. Russia will not keep Ukraine long term anyway. If Ukraine wants to fight let them. Do not get involved. I do not want a big war to prevent a tiny one.

Schapps, just a few days ago, said war with rivals including Russia and China is likely within 5 years.

And you’re acting like, despite the evidence, that would be our fault not theirs. Russia invaded Ukraine, China wants to invade Taiwan, but sure, let’s blame Grant Shapps for talking about it.

Right, ok - so the world should just sit back and let Putin take not just Ukraine, but also Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan...

That'll be nice for all the people he kills deports imprisons before he dies.

Then once he knows he can have Ukraine, he can look towards the Baltic states... Finland...

We stand up to the aggressor to prevent the big war no one wants, if NATO had put 10k soldiers in to Ukraine, he'd never have invaded.

What do we prepare for though?

Do we prepare for war with Russia? Or do we prepare for China invading Taiwan? Or for Iran?

And we have to manage the climate catastrophe as well, where we are fucked anyway.

All that with the looming election of Trump in the US.

How?

Yes, it is an option.

It is not a worse option than an all out world war that includes us…

A country eg Uk has to prioritise its own security before a foreign country’s security. Those countries you mentioned are not our neighbours either.

It’s not nice, but this isn’t about being nice, it’s about survival

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-lost-87-ground-troops-had-before-war-ukraine-cnn-2023-12?op=1&r=US&IR=T]]

This is quite a reduction. They're not going to be marching into Europe anytime soon.

Of course we should prepare & our forces are always prepared to go to war. Doesn't necessarily mean it's imminent. As a Naval family, I find your assessment of our skills & resources a little offensive. The British Navy is the best in the world

@Newbutoldfather there are still lots of spies!

And we aren't as close to nuclear war now as we were during Cuba/Korea airline, we just aren't. With both of those there was a perception that a nuclear strike was imminent, and that the other side therefore had to act. But, even then, they didn't.

Eg in 1983 Andropov was absolutely certain that Reagan had armed and readied his missiles and that the USSR was genuinely on the brink of being destroyed by the one country that has proved itself more than willing to make a nuclear strike on civilians. But although it came close no one actually made the final call. Now we're a million miles away from anything comparable these days so the risk is way smaller.

OK, I'll play devil's advocate... We let Putin re-unite the Soviet Union. Why would his ambitions stop there? He's conquered 14 countries at that point, so the rest of Europe isn't a big stretch further. All those armies under his belt up against us - we find ourselves in a world war at that point anyway.

Also, look up Martin Niemoller - "First they came for..."

Where would uk troops fight Russia? In Ukraine?

If you had been following the discussion you'd know it's about a potential attack on the Baltics. NATO countries, that is, so Article 5 on collective self-defence comes into play.

It’s a gamble but if the dictator just wants Russia reunited (many analyst opinion) then it would stop there….

I am with you about the first they came for sentiments……but that would apply to our neighbours, getting attacked and then next is us….not the same issue. If Ireland was getting attacked, I would be up for acting…