To think the terms "neuro diverse" and "neuro typical" will be short lived.

[theplatformedge]

Diversity means "a range of many people or things that are very different from each other" (Oxford learner's dictionary), so the idea that a minority of people are "neuro diverse" and everyone else is "neuro typical" is not only semantically illogical, but also potentially offensive.

We're all different. Some people have traits that make life more difficult for them than others, whether it be ASD, ADHD or a range of other conditions, with spectrums of severity. Telling people that you're neuro-diverse is so vague as to be meaningless, and telling other people they are nero-typical when you have no idea what they're feeling inside is insensitive. Some people get a formal diagnosis for their symptoms, some people self-diagnose and others don't recognise it in themselves. Nobody knows how many people are living with these traits across the population, but the massive increase in diagnostics suggests they're a lot more common than anyone ever thought in the past, and therefore gradually becoming very "typical".

Discuss! 🙂

Apologies my rant about shutting down debate wasn't aimed at you. I obviously got a bit carried away.

I never said a typical leg won't cause any issues but the majority of these issues will be related to age or injury. Most young, fit people will not experience day to day problems with their legs in the same way they do their brain. Brains are far more complex and have higher levels of variance than a leg. It is therefore possible using clinical data to label a leg as 'typical' but arguably the same cannot be done with the brain. This is why brain scans can't be used to diagnose many conditions under the ND umbrella.

So where does this leave us? In a world where those struggling with their brains seek out a diagnosis so they can have their struggles acknowledged. Some will meet the criteria for an official diagnosis but some won't. For those that don't, what does it mean to be labelled Neurotypical when their brain won't allow them to function 'normally'? We have such imperfect knowledge on the brain and how it works that it is highly likely that those that don't meet the criteria for a diagnosis today could well do so in a few years time and vice versa. Why are we do keen to push a binary model that implies a level of scientific and medical certainty that we simply don't possess yet?

Nothing.

Its a very broad term that people cant agree on what it means and whats included.

Some people would even use neurodiverse to describe the human condition and therefore expect everyone to be neurodiverse. Which isnt the same thing at all as saying we are 'all on the spectrum' because they see asd as just one example of the diversity that humans have with no couter of neurotypical in the mix.

Some people view it very specically to mean you are born with one of a range of neurodevelopmental disorders.

Others throw in aquired disorders too.

Just fully jumping into the ignorance pool now? It’s already been explained how this train of thought is completely wrong and you evidently have very outdated knowledge of autism.

This makes no sense. Of course they are "less autistic" (assuming they are in fact autistic). It's no different from my saying I have mild eczema and my daughter has mild hay fever. Yes, I have eczema and my DD had hayfever, but putting the mild is not wrong, and frankly makes it more accurate. If those at the milder end insist on being part of autism, then they need to accept it will need to be described as mild.

But you either have hayfever or you don't.

You are autistic or you are not.

People change, they develop, they get stronger, they learn more on how to navigate difficult situations, but they can also regress. In fact regression is one of the key factors when looking into autism in infants. It happens with people of all ages though. You could have said my DD had mild autism when she was 6. She is now 14 and you would say she is severely autistic. Mad how things change. Using the term autistic is fine. Your child has hayfever: she may suffer mildly just now but she has the same hayfever as the next person and could quite easily find it severe in the future.

At what age and stage do we categorise?

I just mentioned my DD who would have been placed in the 'mild' box when she was younger. Now at 14? - right in the 'severe'!

Any condition/disability has variables. People can suffer mild/severe effects of the same condition/. They can also change juts like anyone else.

There's an awful lot of ignorance in this thread. First of all definitions. Neurodiverse and neurodivergent are not synonymous. Neurodiverse refers to the diversity of all neurotypes, which includes all the various types that can be considered neurodivergent (aka, deviating from the norm) as well as the neurotypical. It should not be used to refer to neurodivergent people (like autism, ADHD, dyslexia, etc.) because well, that's what 'neurodivergent' means. It doesn't help that this forum itself has a section that is incorrectly titled as 'Neurodiverse Mumsnetters' when it should be 'Neurodivergent'.

It is very much in the same vein as the use of 'diverse' to describe the wide diversity in demographics of people. Including differences in race, sex, sexuality, nationality, and even neurotype. It is incorrect to say "I am neurodiverse" unless you've got about 3 different people living in your head, each with a different neurotype.

That and the continued use of 'Aspergers', a long outdated and at this point highly offensive term that needlessly separates some autistic people from others (along with its Nazi history)

Neurodivergent is just an umbrella term for a variety of different conditions. It makes things easier than listing them all out sometimes.

Me too. It's a thinly veiled goady thread. Again. 'Discuss' indeed.

The same stereotypes and ignorance is trotted out on every thread, and it's a couple of times a week, now.

No other health conditions are questioned like Autism and other ND umbrella conditions are. Nobody goes around questioning MS diagnoses or other Neurological issues, Diabetes, Heart problems, Liver issues.

To the people who want the thread to stand because 'we should be able to discuss and question these things' Do you not understand how insulting it is to those of us who are diagnosed that you actually feel its OK to want to question it? Constantly. And then still say that you don't understand anyway.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

People might have differing levels of support needs but this doesn't mean that the autism is more or less severe.

If you'd seen my DD this morning, travelling independently on the bus to her mainstream school, no doubt you'd have judged her autism to be mild. However if you'd witnessed her beforehand at 7am, in the throes of a full on meltdown because she wasn't happy with her hair, screaming and throwing things, I imagine you might have considered it more severe.

For those who seem to think autism is set from ‘mild and can get on with life’ to ‘severe and will always need care’, I would suggest reading about Anne Hegerty (The Governess from The Chase). Her story is absolutely classic of what happens when ‘mild’ autism is both not recognised for years and then undermined. She is obviously a very intelligent woman, but as is becoming more apparent with ‘high functioning autism’, the more life goes on, the more likely an autistic burnout will happen. This is exactly why autism without learning disabilities shouldn’t be undermined as ‘close to normal’.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/disability-63089051.amp

Yes, you are ignorant. Why reply and offer an option if you don't understand any of it (by your own admission but also obvious from the nonsense you wrote) .

I wrote about this in my response to @LewishamMumNow but I'll cover it again.

People with autism can have interchangeable high support needs and low support needs throughout their entire life.

What people perceive as profound autism is usually high support needs autism with comorbidities such as developmental delays or learning disabilities, ie. The inability to learn to do things like learn to look after themselves either partially or fully, learn academically etc.

Autism alone covers 3 distinct areas of life, with which you have to meet all the criteria in order to receive a diagnosis.

Some people may struggle less due to the way in which they present on the spectrum however that does not mean that they will always struggle less.

Like all people, needs change over the years. People with autism may require more or less support as their needs change.

My son received a very early diagnosis himself as he very obviously presented with high support needs: heavily stimmer, non-verbal, did not respond to name or social cues, couldn't even bear the texture of sensory friendly clothes so spent the first 3 years of his life practically nude. Now he is able to speak, stims less, gets his needs met quicker and can meet his own needs a lot of the time, and is thriving in a mainstream school which I would not have imagined possible a year ago.

I however am almost 30, highly masked as a child, hyperlexic, had less obvious stims and was just deemed hyperactive and quirky, spoke extremely bluntly, scripted, struggled to make friends but I was just called a rude or naughty child, hyperfocused at school, couldn't hack the social requirements of college or university so dropped out, ended up at the job centre, got literally any job I could take which was call centre work, excellent with the structure however unfortunately they can't meet my needs and now I find myself unable to speak some days and am struggling with the long term effects of burnout and am extremely sensitive to all stimuli to the point I will rock back and forth crying and experiencing intense panic attack-like emotions. I can't take wet clothes out of the washing machine, I can't wash my pots, I can't stand the smells of food, lights give me intense headaches, all sounds make my blood curdle and I become extremely aggravated easily.

My support needs are higher than they were when I was my son's age.

So there's no such thing as mild autism. It's all bollocks frankly, and it's all dependent on the support and life experiences available and provided.

Same with my daughter who is now 12 and we are going through hell trying to get the right support, because the level of understating just isn't there across the board. She has a diagnosis of situational mutism, (as well as Autism) but it's now snowballing as she struggles more and more to cope with life. We now have days on end of her being non verbal.

im sure this person parents their daughter very well.

what an odd and angry response.

I want this thread to stand.

I think you are largely conflating people 'not understanding' with people disagreeing. The reason why there is more controversy and disagreement about ND condition compared to other conditions is because of the way the former is diagnosed and the imperfect science that underpins this. It isn't just ND conditions that have this problem as fibromyalgia is also a very controversial condition for similar reasons.

I don't think the premise of this thread is to undermine the struggles of those with a diagnosis but to question if the NT/ND binary model is diminishing the struggles of those without a formal diagnosis but who struggle with issues related to how their brain is functioning and ND traits everyday. The black and white approach of ND and NT isn't helpful or appropriate for these people and it is not morally wrong to raise this and question the validity of the system that is failing them.

my 17 yo sons needs have constantly fluctuated. He has Autism, ADHD, Dyspraxia and hypermobility.

Depending on what day, and what particular diagnosis has the wheel for the day can mean his needs fluctuate significiantly.

Today he is happy, playing on his playstation, all i need do is periodically prompt him to dress, toilet, and come get his food that i've prepared for him to eat. He is calm, happy, chatty and interacting when he's in my company.

He would appear 'low needs' today.

On another day i'm fighting being physically attacked because he can't cope, i'm having to repeat every instruction, he's non verbal, won't eat, hasn't slept, won't get dressed, can't cope with his clothes touching his skin, needs his ear defenders, ticks repeatedly.

Those days he is 'high needs'

But his diagnosis hasn't changed, it's still the same diagnosis as the low needs day.

As i have said, mild/severe autism isn't about how it impacts HIS day. Its a label people who're ignorant insist on sticking on him to do with how they perceive his disabilities when in their company.

It’s an entirely accurate response even if you find it negative. Everything the poster they were replying to was quite worrying for a parent of a sen child to say, like they know very little about the condition despite having a child who has been diagnosed.

Though ‘everyone is a bit autistic’ is usually a side line to ‘but everyone behaves like that’. Usually under it all is huge denial about being autistic themselves (I’m speaking generally not about a singular poster). Or they want there to be such a thing as ‘mild autism’ because they don’t want their child lumped in with autistic kids like mine who are also developmentally delayed.

@RainbowZebraWarrior

We have the mutism now too. I had to take her out of school 2 years ago and she has only once spoken to someone outside of our family unit since then. She is 14 and cannot go outside alone. Cannot be left at home alone. I have to sit in her bedroom floor at night if she is unsettled. Some days I cannot leave the living room as she needs me by her side. It's hard and intense and the people who suggest mild/moderate/severe labelling don't have a clue. Ironically my son who would have had a 'severe' label when he was 5/6 is now sailing his way though university (albeit living at home with 'mild' support)

As a late diagnosed adult my support needs have grown - years of mental health problems and mis diagnoses tend to do that to you. My life is by far much easier now but only because I make accommodation me and do everything I can to keep demands (outside of parenting) to a minimum. I don't work, I don't socialise, I only go to the same supermarket etc show online for other stuff and I live my wee quiet life. I'm also skint becsue living on disability benefits isn't ideal, especially when most would judge me as 'mildly' autistic and obviously able to work. The pressure of that work is what pushes me into cannot cope mode

Yes, but there aren't threads eveey week questioning the validity or increase in fibromyalgia diagnoses.

That's my point. And I'm sick of it being questioned in this way. Or indeed that you feel that the diagnostic criteria isn't thorough. If you'd been through it, you'd know otherwise.

It just smacks of 'its given out like sweets' and 'we don't believe you'

That's why it's offensive to question and debate it.

Aspergers was removed from the DSM in 2013 and the ICD10 in Jan 2022 so it is no longer given as a diagnosis, people who would have received a diagnosis of Asperger's before these dates will now be diagnosed with ASD. Some people who were diagnosed with Asperger's before that date still use that term but most now describe themselves as autistic.

@mamboshirt

Nobody got diagnosed with Asperger's for being 'quirky, with zero issues' though

@SpeedyDrama I have been wondering to what extent some responses come down to denial. Especially the "everybody on MN seems to have a child with ASD" type...what exactly are people feeling so threatened by? Why does it piss people off so much that some of us have pursued diagnosis for our children?

Not being diagnosed as ND does not mean you have been diagnosed as NT, nobody has ever been diagnosed as NT and nobody is pushing for binary model as far as I know.

I am sorry for anyone who struggles to function and has no idea why, I was the same for 36 years. Stating that the majority of brains function similarly and deciding to call that neuro-typical is not that same thing as dismissing everyone who doesn't have a ND diagnosis as fine and denying them help. Who thinks we have this power? ND people are some of the most marginalised groups in society so the idea that we are doing the same by pointing out that most people are not like us is borderline offensive.

funny how a forum for supporting parents is attracting parents who might be seeking support.

People with kids who have disabilities are isolated socially, so we do seek support online, its only natural there would be a wide pool of us here.